Has the USA finally had enough of Israel's foot dragging and obstruction?

[Rerun]

http://www.nytimes.com/2010/03/13/wo...lo.html?src=me

Clinton Rebukes Israel for Housing Announcement

WASHINGTON — In a tense, 43-minute phone call on Friday morning, Secretary of State Hillary Rodham Clinton told Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu that Israel’s plan for new housing units for Jews in East Jerusalem sent a “deeply negative signal” about Israeli-American relations, and not just because it spoiled a visit by Vice President Joseph R. Biden Jr.

Mr. Biden, in Israel this week to declare American support for its security, had already condemned the move as undermining the peace process. But Mrs. Clinton went a good deal further in her conversation with Mr. Netanyahu, saying it had harmed “the bilateral relationship,” according to the State Department spokesman, Philip J. Crowley.

[Anthony Soprano]

The Israeli lobby controls US political campaign donations, so they are the boss here, not the US. They can do what they like and there's nothing Hillary Clinton can do about it.

Israel are intent on bombing Iran ASAP, but their only concern is whether or not the Americans will back them up after they do. Not looking good. Europe is very worried about this situation.

[Table 5]

Honestly, I think it's time to let Israel fend for itself. Let them build wherever they want, let them bomb whoever they want....but then stop letting them hide behind the western powers, and let them care of themselves. No more protection and no more subsidies.

At the moment there are no consequences for Israel, no matter what they do. They are the Quebec of the middle east..sucking off the teet of a much bigger entity, but still managing to control it. I don't blame them with how they act, we are the suckers who let them get away with it. It's pretty amazing how this little pint-sized country has the west by the balls.

A lot of the terrorism plots and anti-west sentiment stem from relations between the countries in the middle east. I honestly think a lot of the terrorist blow back we get out west is how we treat Israel like the golden boy who cannot do wrong, even when it clearly does. Now obviously they are the most western and advanced of the middle east nations and we share a lot of the same values, but I just don't think they are worth protecting. There's too much blowback in our backyards for their actions.

[SeeGeeWhy]

Originally Posted by Anthony Soprano

The Israeli lobby controls US political campaign donations, so they are the boss here, not the US. They can do what they like and there's nothing Hillary Clinton can do about it.

Israel are intent on bombing Iran ASAP, but their only concern is whether or not the Americans will back them up after they do. Not looking good. Europe is very worried about this situation.

And then the screen goes black. WTF are you talking about?

Originally Posted by Table 5

Honestly, I think it's time to let Israel fend for itself. Let them build wherever they want, let them bomb whoever they want....but then stop letting them hide behind the western powers, and let them care of themselves. No more protection and no more subsidies.

At the moment there are no consequences for Israel, no matter what they do. They are the Quebec of the middle east..sucking off the teet of a much bigger entity, but still managing to control it. I don't blame them with how they act, we are the suckers who let them get away with it. It's pretty amazing how this little pint-sized country has the west by the balls.

A lot of the terrorism plots and anti-west sentiment stem from relations between the countries in the middle east. I honestly think a lot of the terrorist blow back we get out west is how we treat Israel like the golden boy who cannot do wrong, even when it clearly does. Now obviously they are the most western and advanced of the middle east nations and we share a lot of the same values, but I just don't think they are worth protecting. There's too much blowback in our backyards for their actions.

How can you compare Quebec to Isreal? Would the US want to murder all of the francophones if the rest of Canada were to cut out support? I can't claim that I understand even an iota of what is happening in the middle east, but I am pretty sure there would be more than one country interested in wiping Isreal off the face of the earth.

[Table 5]

Originally Posted by SeeGeeWhy

I can't claim that I understand even an iota of what is happening in the middle east, but I am pretty sure there would be more than one country interested in wiping Isreal off the face of the earth.

Except that in this case, Israel is the one with all the nuclear weapons, money, and skills to do the most damage. They've shown before how capable their army is....they are not the weak sister. I can see why Israel protects itself, and that's their right, but they seem to go out of their way to aggravate the situation by ignoring peace agreements (just like the other side does too, they are both guilty). They know they can push the boundaries because there are no consequences.

Why does the prosperity of this country matter so much to the west? We let countries be swallowed up and destroyed all the time. Nobody gave a crap about Hungary or Czechoslovakia when they needed help, and that was in the west's neighborhood. Keeping Israel alive has caused some pretty heavy collateral damage on our end. I want peace as much as the next guy, but I'm not sure Israel is worth it.

[transplant99]

Israel is the one with all the nuclear weapons, money, and skills to do the most damage.

Yeah except that they aren't the ones publically calling for the annihalation of every citizen in another country based on religious beliefs, unlike the whackjob running Iran, who BTW are clearly and aggresively on their way to obtaining nuclear capability.

I want peace as much as the next guy, but I'm not sure Israel is worth it.

Doing nothing will not result in peace. It will only embolden the fanatical element of Islam if they get their way with israel....it really is one war worth fighting as if it isnt fought, watch things get 100 times worse.

Just my opinion.

[Table 5]

The problem is that Israel itself is not functioning in good faith, and pull these type of stunts to further aggravate everyone. They know how much building these settlement will enrage the nutjobs on the other side, and then do it anyway. Are they really worth it? I just don't see them bargaining in good faith.

All in all, I'd much rather Israel be in control than the loon from Iran, but at some point the west needs to let them have a taste of the consequences when they run afoul. The tail is clearly wagging the dog over there.

[valo403]

Originally Posted by Table 5

The problem is that Israel itself is not functioning in good faith, and pull these type of stunts to further aggravate everyone. They know how much building these settlement will enrage the nutjobs on the other side, and then do it anyway. Are they really worth it? I just don't see them bargaining in good faith.

All in all, I'd much rather Israel be in control than the loon from Iran, but at some point the west needs to let them have a taste of the consequences when they run afoul. The tail is clearly wagging the dog over there.

I agree with the assessment of Israel's actions, I think they need to be supported, but they also need to show a willingness to not take actions that just exacerbate already bad situations.

[Buzzard]

Originally Posted by Table 5

Why does the prosperity of this country matter so much to the west?

At the risk of stirring up a big bees nest here....there's some six million Jews in the US. Now that isn't a huge percentage of 300 odd million, but I am ASSUMING that there is a relatively large percentage of those 6 million that have either family, friends, or financial interests in what happens in Israel. I am also ASSUMING that a relatively large percentage of those with interests are fairly powerful people with strong political influence, whether it be monetary or otherwise.

[HPLovecraft]

I don't think the West should cut off all support of Israel, they are still a strong ally in an area of the world where there aren't really any others, but they need to be held accountable for their actions, and they need to stop being coddled by countries like the US. They get a free ticket to do as they please in the world, even as far as entering other countries and kidnapping citizens to bring them back to Israel.

When they do things that are bad -- and some of the things they do are so ridiculously bad that's it beyond hypocritical to still stick up for them when they do them -- they need to be punished, or at least told openly what they're doing is wrong and won't be supported by others. That doesn't mean a complete severance of relations and leaving them to the wolves. That being said, at this point in their history, Israel could quite ably handle any of the neighboring Arab states, so if the States and other countries did reign in their support, they wouldn't immediately vaporize.

Israel does nothing but perpetuate the issues going on around them, and vice-versa. It almost seems to me like those in power on both sides don't want the fighting and the killing to end. Have to keep Palestine unstable and all. If they form a centralized, stable state, it's even more dangerous to Israel than now. On the other hand, if Palestine forms a peaceful, prosperous nation, those in power by rule of might lose that power.

People suck.

[Nage Waza]

So let me get this straight. Israel is a sovereign nation and the world condemns them for building houses.
The Palestinian authority have not been there to represent their people. The rockets still get fired, there is no real democracy and those that open their mouths quickly get dealt with. So what does Israel do when it has no 'other side' to negotiate with? They put a fire under the PA by building houses so there will be less to negotiate. It is as simple as that. The PA does nothing because it simply does not care. Do you think for a second that the Palestinians simply want land and it will all be peaceful? Only when the Palestinians are taught not to hate will there even be close to a solution (I certainly don't think the average Palestinian is full of hate, but the society is infiltrated with groups like Hamas, and until the terrorist groups are pushed out there will be no agreement). How long should Israel simply sit there and wait? Nations like Iran, Syria and others simply support the hatred and perpetuate the problem.

Table 5, you are one foolish person. You are blaming Israel for the woes of the world. The terrorists represent a movement to basically move Islam across the world. This would take place regardless of Israel. If you think for a second any of the terrorist acts have anything to do for the 'freedom' of Palestinians you clearly demonstrate how ridiculous your thoughts are. Strangely, the nations who have done the most for the average Palestinian is the Israeli's and the western world that provide all the support. The only thing a place like Iran does is send weapons and messages of hate. You are a fool for actually thinking Israel is the catalyst for that. You clearly have listened to too much hate speak to even discuss this matter with any intelligence.

[Table 5]

Clearly, I am out to lunch. Israel can do no wrong, has never done anything to incite hate, and it's everyone else's fault. They deserve none of the blame, and asking them to play within the rules is just ignorant, racist blather. End of story, right Nage?

[transplant99]

Originally Posted by Table 5

Clearly, I am out to lunch. Israel can do no wrong, and it's everyone else's fault. They deserve none of the blame, and only praise. End of story.

I dont think anyone is saying that at all..in fact i agree that they tend to poke the bear so to speak way to often.

However, should the US abandon their support of Israel, we will see the holocaust part 2 quicker than Ahmadinejad can say Allah.

[Anthony Soprano]

13 out of 100 Senators in the USA are Jewish

A record 45 Jews currently serve in Congress.

45 out of 541 Congressmen are Jewish.

That's 13% of the Senate
8.4% of the House of Representatives

1.7% of people in the USA are Jewish.

[Table 5]

Originally Posted by transplant99

I dont think anyone is saying that at all..in fact i agree that they tend to poke the bear so to speak way to often.

I guy like Nage is. That seems to be the typical reaction any time someone suggests that Israel needs to start playing fair, and facing consequences. As I mentioned before, I support Israel protecting itself, and the west supporting a democracy in that part of the world. What I don't support is us bending over backwards for them, even when they are clearly aggravating the situation. I'm just not sure it's worth it for us anymore. While doing nothing and letting things play out might empower the current generation of loonie-toons, unabashedly supporting Israel even when it does highly-questionable actions, only creates a new generation of Palestinians who want revenge....and we get stung by proxy. It's a pretty vicious cycle.

[Table 5]

Originally Posted by Anthony Soprano

13 out of 100 Senators in the USA are Jewish

A record 45 Jews currently serve in Congress.

45 out of 541 Congressmen are Jewish.

That's 13% of the Senate
8.4% of the House of Representatives

1.7% of people in the USA are Jewish.

I don't blame jewish people for advancing themselves in America. On the whole, they tend to be very intelligent and hard working people. They have that right, as we all do.

My beef is with how we American's coddle Israel, and treat it way above it's fighting weight. Biden saying "The US has no better friend than Israel" a couple of weeks ago seems so out of order to me considering the reality of their trading partnership. If I was Canada, UK, Germany etc, I'd be pretty insulted by that comment. I just don't get why we have to bow to them so much....it's almost as if we are afraid of Israel.

[_Q_]

Originally Posted by Table 5

Honestly, I think it's time to let Israel fend for itself. Let them build wherever they want, let them bomb whoever they want....but then stop letting them hide behind the western powers, and let them care of themselves. No more protection and no more subsidies.

At the moment there are no consequences for Israel, no matter what they do. They are the Quebec of the middle east..sucking off the teet of a much bigger entity, but still managing to control it. I don't blame them with how they act, we are the suckers who let them get away with it. It's pretty amazing how this little pint-sized country has the west by the balls.

A lot of the terrorism plots and anti-west sentiment stem from relations between the countries in the middle east. I honestly think a lot of the terrorist blow back we get out west is how we treat Israel like the golden boy who cannot do wrong, even when it clearly does. Now obviously they are the most western and advanced of the middle east nations and we share a lot of the same values, but I just don't think they are worth protecting. There's too much blowback in our backyards for their actions.

I completely agree with you. The reason why most civilized nations act in good faith to others is because of the fear of fallback. I think if the US was to cut all ties with Israel, they would be forced into negotiations with their neighbours and a peace deal would be finalized quickly.

[_Q_]

Originally Posted by Nage Waza

So let me get this straight. Israel is a sovereign nation and the world condemns them for building houses.
The Palestinian authority have not been there to represent their people. The rockets still get fired, there is no real democracy and those that open their mouths quickly get dealt with. So what does Israel do when it has no 'other side' to negotiate with? They put a fire under the PA by building houses so there will be less to negotiate. It is as simple as that. The PA does nothing because it simply does not care. Do you think for a second that the Palestinians simply want land and it will all be peaceful? Only when the Palestinians are taught not to hate will there even be close to a solution (I certainly don't think the average Palestinian is full of hate, but the society is infiltrated with groups like Hamas, and until the terrorist groups are pushed out there will be no agreement). How long should Israel simply sit there and wait? Nations like Iran, Syria and others simply support the hatred and perpetuate the problem.

Table 5, you are one foolish person. You are blaming Israel for the woes of the world. The terrorists represent a movement to basically move Islam across the world. This would take place regardless of Israel. If you think for a second any of the terrorist acts have anything to do for the 'freedom' of Palestinians you clearly demonstrate how ridiculous your thoughts are. Strangely, the nations who have done the most for the average Palestinian is the Israeli's and the western world that provide all the support. The only thing a place like Iran does is send weapons and messages of hate. You are a fool for actually thinking Israel is the catalyst for that. You clearly have listened to too much hate speak to even discuss this matter with any intelligence.

You're an idiot.

[Blaster86]

Originally Posted by Anthony Soprano

13 out of 100 Senators in the USA are Jewish

A record 45 Jews currently serve in Congress.

45 out of 541 Congressmen are Jewish.

That's 13% of the Senate
8.4% of the House of Representatives

1.7% of people in the USA are Jewish.

So, what you're saying is that Jewish people like to run for office and are good politicians so they get elected?

Or that you're trying to make this a conspiracy theory thread.

One is logical and likely correct, the other will get you mocked. Tread carefully.

Originally Posted by _Q_

You're an idiot.

Well, it's not as wordy as Nage's but it's saying the same thing. This is gonna get funny before it gets better!

[Addick]

Originally Posted by transplant99

Doing nothing will not result in peace. It will only embolden the fanatical element of Islam if they get their way with israel....it really is one war worth fighting as if it isnt fought, watch things get 100 times worse.

To be honest, I think things would probably get better. Trying to get reclaim what was allegedly taken from them through swindles is not the sole plight of extremist or fanatical Islamics, originally it was the plight of a large portion of regular Muslims. I think if the whole "Israeli occupation" situation did not exist the extremists would not be able to have such a large appeal to a large amount of frustrated Muslims as most of them wouldn't be so frustrated.

Originally Posted by Nage Waza

Table 5, you are one foolish person. You are blaming Israel for the woes of the world. The terrorists represent a movement to basically move Islam across the world. This would take place regardless of Israel.

OMG! Accusing someone of being anti-semitic is the new, "It's because I'm black isn't it?".

And like I said above, the terrorist movement would have only a fraction of the power they currently do today if Israel was not a factor.