Mitch Wahl

[Johnny Rotten]

Is it me, or has Mitch Wahl been hot lately? Does he have a chance in cracking the Flames lineup next year, or is he destined for Abbotsford?

[Imported_Aussie]

He will come into camp and get a shot, but he will likely need to play at least a season in the AHL to get primed for the big time. He is an overager in the WHL now, so it will be how he handles the next jump (to AHL) that determines if/when he makes the flames

or he gets traded now while his value is high...you never know...

[Johnny Rotten]

I think he'd be an overager next year, but nonetheless he'll be playing somwhere as a pro next year. Maybe he and Nemisz will play together next year in Abbotsford.

[icarus]

No doubt he and Nemisz will be in Abbotsford and hopefully can infuse some offence into the Heat.

[Delthefunky]

Has anyone seen him play lately? I haven't... I have strong hopes for him, but was disappointed to see him left off the junior team. How is he playing exactly?

[Swayze11]

He will do the typical Calgary Flames prospect route:
1- Go to camp
2- Get sent down to Abbotsford
3- Play there for 3+ years ruining his entry level deal because Sutter loves his vets and will sign 3-5 UFAs to fill spots that youth can fill
4- Have serious considerations of playing in Europe
5- Play in Europe, quit hockey, or find another team in the NHL

[Bingo]

Originally Posted by Swayze11

He will do the typical Calgary Flames prospect route:
1- Go to camp
2- Get sent down to Abbotsford
3- Play there for 3+ years ruining his entry level deal because Sutter loves his vets and will sign 3-5 UFAs to fill spots that youth can fill
4- Have serious considerations of playing in Europe
5- Play in Europe, quit hockey, or find another team in the NHL

late late 1st round pick and a 2nd rounder ... what you want them to start in the NHL? That's a good development plan.

Check out how many non top ten picks start in the NHL without AHL seasoning and get back to me.

Does Backlund in the NHL for a stretch in his FIRST pro season warrant no attention from you at all?

Players move into roles and levels based on their play. If the play dictates the AHL is still a struggle then you'd call them up anyway because you think the first contract might get wasted? The Flames have had one top ten pick in Sutter's tenure ... guess what? He didn't play in the AHL.

[Delthefunky]

Originally Posted by Swayze11

He will do the typical Calgary Flames prospect route:
1- Go to camp
2- Get sent down to Abbotsford
3- Play there for 3+ years ruining his entry level deal because Sutter loves his vets and will sign 3-5 UFAs to fill spots that youth can fill
4- Have serious considerations of playing in Europe
5- Play in Europe, quit hockey, or find another team in the NHL

Yeah man, I'm having trouble thinking of anybody who follows your scenario...?

[Swayze11]

Originally Posted by Bingo

late late 1st round pick and a 2nd rounder ... what you want them to start in the NHL? That's a good development plan.

Check out how many non top ten picks start in the NHL without AHL seasoning and get back to me.

Does Backlund in the NHL for a stretch in his FIRST pro season warrant no attention from you at all?

Players move into roles and levels based on their play. If the play dictates the AHL is still a struggle then you'd call them up anyway because you think the first contract might get wasted? The Flames have had one top ten pick in Sutter's tenure ... guess what? He didn't play in the AHL.

Sure thing boss:

TJ Oshie
Patrik Berglund
Ryan O'Reilly
Michael Del Zotto
Vicktor Tikhanov
Nick Folingno
Milan Lucic
Anze Kopitar
Marc Staal
Martin Hanzal
Andrew Cogliano
Matt Niskanen
Marc-E Vlasic
Paul Statsny
Guillaume Latendresse
Mason Raymond (only 31 games in the AHL)
Kris Letang (only 10 games in the AHL)
Brent Seabrook
Ryan Getzlaf
Brent Burns
Ryan Kesler
Mike Richards
Corey Perry
Patrice Bergeron
Matt Carle
Wojtek Wolski
Andrej Meszaros


..just to name a few

I am not saying going the AHL route to develop players is bad, my point is... the Flames don't do that. We have what? Boyd, Nystrom, Pardy, Gio as our "developed" players? From the list above you could argue that 80% of that list is franchise players or impact players who have been with the same organization that they were drafted by.

Nobody can argue that Sutter loves his vets, but the fact that he says he would like to give 2-3 roster spots to players on the farm is a total lie. Sure nobody might be ready to make the jump but whos fault is that? I will let you decide

EDIT: I am not turning this into a "I Hate Sutter" thread but the facts don't lie. Our development system is not working at all, you can blame it on whoever you want: scouting, management, owners, etc but it all comes down to who is in charge and who is the one that hires all of these people. The Flames are known for ruining prospects/bubble players for simply not giving them a chance, hence my first post. Backlund has looked GREAT since he has been with the big squad but looks lost with Abbotsford, look what a chance can do.

[Delthefunky]

I'm sorry, what's your argument exactly??

[Swayze11]

Originally Posted by Delthefunky

I'm sorry, what's your argument exactly??

see above EDIT

[Delthefunky]

Backlund wasn't ready before this season, he went down to the AHL, polished his defensive game, and voila, he can hold his own in the NHL. I wouldn't even say he's played great, but we need the offense he brings.

The norm is to round out your game in the AHL... that's why it's called the farm. You wouldn't say Sutter has been able to build a pretty solid stable of defencemen? I'm looking forward to see what guy's like Pelech and Negrin can bring. That's what Sutter's been drafting. Sure we don't have many dynamic forwards, we missed on a few maybe like Chucko, but I'm pretty excited about Nemisz, Wahl and Howse.

[Swayze11]

Originally Posted by Delthefunky

Backlund wasn't ready before this season, he went down to the AHL, polished his defensive game, and voila, he can hold his own in the NHL. I wouldn't even say he's played great, but we need the offense he brings.

The norm is to round out your game in the AHL... that's why it's called the farm. You wouldn't say Sutter has been able to build a pretty solid stable of defencemen? I'm looking forward to see what guy's like Pelech and Negrin can bring. That's what Sutter's been drafting. Sure we don't have many dynamic forwards, we missed on a few maybe like Chucko, but I'm pretty excited about Nemisz, Wahl and Howse.

When will Pelech ever be ready? I thought he was REALLY good in his 1st game as a Flame, but where does that get you? right back on the farm.

My major point is all the good teams take advantage of entry level deals even if they are ready or not (ATL probably isnt a good example but these guys are developing pretty well):
O'Reilly - Colorado
Kane - Atlanta
Little - Atlanta
Bogosian - Atlanta
Wheeler - Boston
Ladd - back in Carolina
Hjalmarsson - Chicago
Galiardi - Colorado
Quincy - LA/Colorado

just to name a few. In a salary cap world you simply MUST do it. Sure he might not be 100% ready and may make some mistakes but what can you expect?

I know there are examples of players being rushed and ruin their career but its not like we are putting some Junior C player on the 1st line in his 1st NHL game, there guys are drafted for a reason.

CP is by far the worst for valuing people on their salary amount. If Backlund came in, scored 10 goals in say 82 games.... he is making less then a million, I would say that is an over achievement. Look at Phaneuf - making 6.5 million but wasnt playing up to his 6.5 million dollar contract, therefore he is the whipping boy of CP. The larger the contract the more expectations, if you throw in some guys from the farm who are making less then a million, expectations are either met or are achieved.

[flambers]

Originally Posted by Swayze11

see above EDIT

So your arguement is Sutter is drafting poorly or Sutter is developing the players poorly?

I believe the drafting part of the discussion has been covered over and over and over. However as for the developing part of it... personally I like the strategy employed by the Flames.

Sutter stated there are players who could be on the NHL roster but only on depth roles (he said this at the fan forum), however the Flames perfered to have them play a bigger role in the minors (I assume he was talking about a player like Matt Petech).

Why push a player to the NHL if they are not ready? What is the harm to play them for a few years in AHL? I believe the Wings also use this strategy... (example Jimmy Howard played in NCAA then played 4 seasons in AHL before taking a large role this year).

Of course there are examples of players who are NHL ready and can take the next step very quickly. Year 2003 draft class is a great example but that is a rare case (i.e. Perry, Getzalf, Seabrook and Bergeron).

[Swayze11]

Originally Posted by flambers

So your arguement is Sutter is drafting poorly or Sutter is developing the players poorly?

No, although they have.

Originally Posted by flambers

I believe the drafting part of the discussion has been covered over and over and over. However as for the developing part of it... personally I like the strategy employed by the Flames.

Sutter stated there are players who could be on the NHL roster but only on depth roles (he said this at the fan forum), however the Flames perfered to have them play a bigger role in the minors (I assume he was talking about a player like Matt Petech).

Why push a player to the NHL if they are not ready? What is the harm to play them for a few years in AHL? I believe the Wings also use this strategy... (example Jimmy Howard played in NCAA then played 4 seasons in AHL before taking a large role this year).

The harm is you lose their entry level contract, you MUST take advantage of it. Please do not take my point wrong, I have no problem whatsoever of putting players on the farm, my point is... how long is long enough and how long is too long. I would have no problem putting Pelech in the lineup but with all the vets already here there no chance he becomes a regular EVER because most of these guys are locked up long term. I look at it from the players perspective, if I was a d-man who was drafted by the flames and my dream was to play in the NHL and I saw Bouwmeester, Regehr, White(RFA - will re-sign), Sarich all locked up long term and Pardy and Gio locked up for another year I would be pissed.

Backlund is the main focus here, maybe its just me but I thought he has looked REALLY good with the big squad. Look what a chance and better line mates can do to a player whos dream is to be in the NHL. Motivation to play in the AHL is a lot lower then someone whos dream is to be in the NHL.

[looooob]

Originally Posted by Swayze11

When will Pelech ever be ready? I thought he was REALLY good in his 1st game as a Flame, but where does that get you? right back on the farm.

My major point is all the good teams take advantage of entry level deals even if they are ready or not (ATL probably isnt a good example but these guys are developing pretty well):
O'Reilly - Colorado
Kane - Atlanta
Little - Atlanta
Bogosian - Atlanta
Wheeler - Boston
Ladd - back in Carolina
Hjalmarsson - Chicago
Galiardi - Colorado
Quincy - LA/Colorado

just to name a few. In a salary cap world you simply MUST do it. Sure he might not be 100% ready and may make some mistakes but what can you expect?

.

fewer of these guys are Dmen though and Bogosian probably doesn't count as a top 5 pick on Atlanta

I'm not saying that they are doing it right with Pelech and I darn well hope he is on the team next year, including for the reasons you state, but its not that unusual for 21ish year old Ds to be in the AHL

Quincey was 23 I think by the time he played regularly. Hjalmarsson is a good example though

[flambers]

Originally Posted by Swayze11

I would have no problem putting Pelech in the lineup but with all the vets already here there no chance he becomes a regular EVER because most of these guys are locked up long term. I look at it from the players perspective, if I was a d-man who was drafted by the flames and my dream was to play in the NHL and I saw Bouwmeester, Regehr, White(RFA - will re-sign), Sarich all locked up long term and Pardy and Gio locked up for another year I would be pissed.

.

If a prospect is ready, I personally believe a spot would open up. If a prospect is not ready they will spend time in the AHL.

Its all about consistency.... lots of the prospects struggle with this.

(i.e. I would guess that was Backlund's biggest challenge).

[Claeren]

Boyd played one year in the AHL, lit it up (60 points in 66 games at 20 years old), and forced his way on to the NHL team. If you play really well in the AHL they don't leave you in the AHL.

In the last 7 years of drafting most teams have made what, 50 draft picks each? To pick a few that skipped the AHL is not that hard, especially when many were still top60 picks in their draft years. Furthermore, the better teams in the NHL are not the ones letting lots of 18-19 year olds onto their roster, although some like Colorado have seen some progress because they did -- however we dont know if it will burn out some of those kids early or ruin their long term potential just yet.


Also, a player like Renaud or a more.... focused Ryder, could have been those players for the Flames/Sutter, now we will never know.



Claeren.

[bubbsy]

Originally Posted by Swayze11

No, although they have.



The harm is you lose their entry level contract, you MUST take advantage of it. Please do not take my point wrong, I have no problem whatsoever of putting players on the farm, my point is... how long is long enough and how long is too long. I would have no problem putting Pelech in the lineup but with all the vets already here there no chance he becomes a regular EVER because most of these guys are locked up long term. I look at it from the players perspective, if I was a d-man who was drafted by the flames and my dream was to play in the NHL and I saw Bouwmeester, Regehr, White(RFA - will re-sign), Sarich all locked up long term and Pardy and Gio locked up for another year I would be pissed.

Backlund is the main focus here, maybe its just me but I thought he has looked REALLY good with the big squad. Look what a chance and better line mates can do to a player whos dream is to be in the NHL. Motivation to play in the AHL is a lot lower then someone whos dream is to be in the NHL.

I like your point about infusing youth into an nhl squad to help make a far more cost effective roster, while infusing young legs, etc.

I think ANY GM would want this, however, excellent drafting is a critical prereq. for that.

The flames a) haven't done any amazing drafting in the past few years, b) have drafted dmen which take longer to transition by virtue, c) the one naturally, offensively gifted forward drafted in sometime, Backlund finished his juniour career last year, played half hte season in the AHL, and is now being given his shot in the NHL. I am positive he will be back as soon as the season commences.

Top 6 forward prospects are extremely tough to slide into a lineup. Boyd/Kobesew are obvious examples. They aren't strong enough coming in to be in the top 6, aren't effective to be in the bottom 6, but are arguably good enough to play in the NHL. On teams that are middle of the heap teams, sure you let them play in the top 6 and hope they get accustomed sooner than later. But, the leash is a lot shorter in environments like calgary the past few years where every year is considered "the year".....

[kirant]

Originally Posted by Swayze11

When will Pelech ever be ready? I thought he was REALLY good in his 1st game as a Flame, but where does that get you? right back on the farm.

Pelech is beyond ready. He was marginal last year IMO, but he's vastly improved now. The problem is that the Flames have so much defensive depth (and Sarich is close to unmovable now IMO) that there just isn't room for him yet. I mean, the only open/realistic spot for him would be in Johnson's spot, and I'd much rather having the Flames get laughed at for leaving him in the AHL than letting him rot on the sidelines.

Wait until the summer. I think Sarich will be traded for minimal return and Pelech will take his spot.

Originally Posted by Swayze11

I know there are examples of players being rushed and ruin their career but its not like we are putting some Junior C player on the 1st line in his 1st NHL game, there guys are drafted for a reason.

Yes, but there has to be a fit. I mean, look at poor Boyd. He was an amazing AHL player, but 1-2 years forced to play with grinders and it looks like all the offensive creativity we saw from the Quad City Boyd isn't there anymore.

The Flames have been running a system of 2 scoring lines, 1 checking line, and 1 "Energy" line (of grinders) for a while. I think by virtue this system means that the talented scorers likely won't be on the team until they're capable of cracking the top 6.

In the ideal world, I agree, they should be slotted in when ready, but the team just isn't built to run that way.