Was watching a buddies game tonight where the following happened-
The puck was in the offensive zone but was turned over and taken the other way up the ice. As this was happening, the goalie on the puck carrying team went down after what appeared to be a slash by the opponent who was also trailing the play.
This is what I couldn't figure out.
The play continued for a few seconds and then was whistled down when the refs noticed the goalie on the ice. It was obvious the opponent did something (none of us in the stands saw what had happened because it was so far behind the play) but it was mass confusion for a few minutes as to what was going on because literally no one saw what happened, not even the refs (I found this out when talking to my buddy after the game, the time keepers, players, refs..no one had any idea what happened but it was obvious something had happened).
What initially happened was that one ref grabbed the guy who was trailing the play and put him in the box for what I guess was initially a minor penalty. After the captains and the second ref talked, the guy was then kicked out of the game because of league rules that state any penalty that results in an injury is an automatic game misconduct and suspension.
Myself being a sucker for hockey rules and figuring out "what if" hockey scenarios, this one left me a little stumped. Apparently, the refs openly admitted to both sides that they didn't see the initial incident but called a penalty because it was obvious something had happened, then when the goalie stayed down the misconduct was assessed.
So my question is- Can/should a penalty be called if no one sees what happened? is the aftermath enough to make a penalty call on? I'm guessing probably yes but I figured someone on CP would know better then me. But then I guess the other side is, what's stopping someone from staying down every time there is an incidental roughing or crosschecking in order to gain the match penalty and the extra 3 minutes of PP time for their team. Forgot to add incase it makes a difference, the goalie stayed in and finished the game.
Was watching a buddies game tonight where the following happened-
The puck was in the offensive zone but was turned over and taken the other way up the ice. As this was happening, the goalie on the puck carrying team went down after what appeared to be a slash by the opponent who was also trailing the play.
This is what I couldn't figure out.
The play continued for a few seconds and then was whistled down when the refs noticed the goalie on the ice. It was obvious the opponent did something (none of us in the stands saw what had happened because it was so far behind the play) but it was mass confusion for a few minutes as to what was going on because literally no one saw what happened, not even the refs (I found this out when talking to my buddy after the game, the time keepers, players, refs..no one had any idea what happened but it was obvious something had happened).
What initially happened was that one ref grabbed the guy who was trailing the play and put him in the box for what I guess was initially a minor penalty. After the captains and the second ref talked, the guy was then kicked out of the game because of league rules that state any penalty that results in an injury is an automatic game misconduct and suspension.
Myself being a sucker for hockey rules and figuring out "what if" hockey scenarios, this one left me a little stumped. Apparently, the refs openly admitted to both sides that they didn't see the initial incident but called a penalty because it was obvious something had happened, then when the goalie stayed down the misconduct was assessed.
So my question is- Can/should a penalty be called if no one sees what happened? is the aftermath enough to make a penalty call on? I'm guessing probably yes but I figured someone on CP would know better then me. But then I guess the other side is, what's stopping someone from staying down every time there is an incidental roughing or crosschecking in order to gain the match penalty and the extra 3 minutes of PP time for their team. Forgot to add incase it makes a difference, the goalie stayed in and finished the game.
Like I said- I'm stumped.
You'd be amazed at some of the calls in rec hockey. Some that just leave you shaking your head.
I think you can, if a play is that obvious. We're not talking about someone getting called on a slash because someone complained. We're talking about a guy going down and being injured when the play wasn't near him.
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I think it's a bad call.
You say no one saw what happened, so how do you know the goalie didn't just take a dive and claim to have been slashed?
Also, kicking they guy out because he casued an injury is stupid. The goalie wasn't injured, he finished the game. Hurt and maybe a little sore, sure, but if you finish the game, you aren't injured. Unless say you're bleeding, but I'd say that's pretty much the only exception.
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Funny call too in my son's minor hockey Peewee game. I was scorekeeper in the box, the officials blew the whistle, and all twelve players on the ice eased up. Our team's door swung open for a line change. Another whistle, and one of our guys was in the box. The call? Too many men. The officials didn't even come to the box to give me the call; I had to ask the bench.
I ref beer league and my philosophy is that I will never call what I didn't see, it's not fare otherwise. Once a ref starts listening to the teams or "thinks" they saw something, the game is in trouble.
I must admit though, I hate knowing something happened but not seeing it.
I ref beer league and my philosophy is that I will never call what I didn't see, it's not fare otherwise. Once a ref starts listening to the teams or "thinks" they saw something, the game is in trouble.
I must admit though, I hate knowing something happened but not seeing it.
I've ref'd minor hockey for 7 years and basically you can't call a penalty if you didn't see it, even if the missed play resulted in an injury. Because "nobody knew what happened" the ref's should have a little discussion among themselves to make sure someone is always watching the whole rink, then talk to the captins (or for peewee and under use the coaches). If you're sure it was the "guy trailing the play" I'd have a little chat with him too and let him know that you're watching him.
In Calgary Minor Hockey the rule about injury is that if a player commits a foul that results in an injury he/she should be assesed a 5min major and a game misconduct, depending on what foul was committed. Some rules have the major and GM, some don't but for a for an infraction where you have the option of 2min minor or Major and GM the rule is that you are to call the Major and GM. If there is an intent to injure or the player's conduct is "making a travesty of the game" the ref should give a Match Penalty or Gross Misconduct. These penalties give a longer suspension.
There's usually atleast one assistant coach who saw something, so make sure you get their perspective through the captins (or for young kinds just talk to the coaches) but you can't call a penalty if you didn't see it. Coaches are usually helpful if they know you're looking out for their kids and you want to make the rink as safe as possible. Also, don't be afraid to talk with the timekeepers because they usually have a good view.
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The puck was in the offensive zone but was turned over and taken the other way up the ice. As this was happening, the goalie on the puck carrying team went down after what appeared to be a slash by the opponent who was also trailing the play.
..............
Why do you say. 'What appeared to be a slash' Did you see something that made you say that?
there was a play a maybe last week, in carolina. stephane yelle hit his own player with a high stick. ref saw the contact and player head snap back, yet no one on the other team hit said player. the closest opposing player was given 2 for high stick.
Happened to us once in rec hockey. There was a slash and he didn't even see the number on the jersey or the slash happen, but it dropped a guy at center ice so he assumed it happened.
Nobody saw anything but the ref said "look I know it was one of you, so step forward or its a double minor" Then he pointed at me and said "21 get in the box".. even though I never touched the guy.
Later on the dood said that he had actually lost an edge and no one touched him.
I was angry but at the same time those guys put up with a lot of crap.. they make decent money, but I don't think it is worth what they go through.
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In Calgary Minor Hockey the rule about injury is that if a player commits a foul that results in an injury he/she should be assesed a 5min major and a game misconduct, depending on what foul was committed. Some rules have the major and GM, some don't but for a for an infraction where you have the option of 2min minor or Major and GM the rule is that you are to call the Major and GM. If there is an intent to injure or the player's conduct is "making a travesty of the game" the ref should give a Match Penalty or Gross Misconduct. These penalties give a longer suspension.
I'd agree with pretty much everything you said, except for the part about not every penalty able to be a 5+GM. As far as the rule book reads, any penalty where there's an injury, you've got the ability to up it from a deuce to 5+GM. That whole "at the discretion of the referee" stuff haha.
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Why do you say. 'What appeared to be a slash' Did you see something that made you say that?
The goalie went down holding the back of his leg, I just assumed it would have been a slash as I don't know what else it could have been. Then when the team of the injured goalie was freaking out to the referee, alot of the players were making slashing motions with their sticks.
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I have reffed for a couple of years now (by a couple, I mean 14). I now ref competitive and high calibre hockey. The thing that got me higher leagues is that I NEVER GUESS AT A CALL.
The refs should not have made a call if they did not see it. Regardless of it being rec hockey. Typically, to around 40 guys on the ice, this is their NHL. Refs should always treat it that way.
Also to the OP: If this game was at FDB after the Team Canada Female Olympic team vs. Calgary Buffaloes, then that bald ref with the goatee was a complete loser. Not fit to carry my bag to the rink, and not fit to ref any hockey anywhere.
I'd agree with pretty much everything you said, except for the part about not every penalty able to be a 5+GM. As far as the rule book reads, any penalty where there's an injury, you've got the ability to up it from a deuce to 5+GM. That whole "at the discretion of the referee" stuff haha.
Not every penalty has the 5+GM. For example attempt to injure does not have a 5+GM because you have to go straight to Match penalty. That's what I was trying to get at.
Not every penalty has the 5+GM. For example attempt to injure does not have a 5+GM because you have to go straight to Match penalty. That's what I was trying to get at.
Ah touche. I was thinking more along the lines of usual penalties.
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