Adding french doors to dining room

[shane_c]

We are wanting to add french doors to our finished dining room. There are 2 entrances and both are already framed so we will not be adding pre-hung doors. They will be added to the existing frame.

1) first entrance is 36.5" wide. We were going to go with a 36" swing in door. Would the extra 0.5" be eaten up between the gap on the hinge side and the knob side?

2) the larger entrance is 49" wide and we were going to go with two 24" swing in doors. Same question. Do we need to worry about the extra 1" or will it be okay given gaps on the 2 hinge sides and the gap between the 2 doors? If not, how much should we build out the existing frame so that it fits properly?

Also, for the larger opening we can't decide if we should go with one turn style handle and one dummy, or two dummy handles and the door would be secured in place using one of those ball/recessed cup latches. Any recommendations?

[Jedi Ninja]

I'm no carpenter, but I do have french doors, and since no one has answered your question : The doors in my house are 30" wide and the opening is 60.25", the extra .25" is pretty much the gap between the two doors. The hinges are mitered into the frame and are practically flush when the door is closed.

FYI, mortising the jamb and door for the hinges is a huge PITA. You can get a jig at Lee Valley to do this, but you're better off getting the door store to pre mortise if you can. If you talk to the guys at the store, I'd bet they'd talk you into getting prehung doors and replacing the entire frame/jamb.

[zarrell]

Half an inch is too large to make it look right. When I hang doors, my opening is 3/16" bigger than the door size. With double doors I go 1/4". If you want it to look right, you're better off taking the existing frame and doing it properly. Also, your existing frames will most certainly not be level or plumb, so getting a door to fit properly will be tough. For your double door, when you do get it in, pick up some rare earth magnets from Lee Valley. Put one on the top of the door and one on your frame. Silent, strong and much easier to install than a ball catch.

[shane_c]

Thanks for the replies. Everything is perfectly level and straight, unlike the place we had in Calgary. Looks like we might have to build out the sides a bit. I'll look into those magnets.

[Jedi Ninja]

^^^ Ugh, I meant "mortising"

[STAMPEDRED]

Originally Posted by shane_c

We are wanting to add french doors to our finished dining room. There are 2 entrances and both are already framed so we will not be adding pre-hung doors. They will be added to the existing frame.

1) first entrance is 36.5" wide. We were going to go with a 36" swing in door. Would the extra 0.5" be eaten up between the gap on the hinge side and the knob side?

2) the larger entrance is 49" wide and we were going to go with two 24" swing in doors. Same question. Do we need to worry about the extra 1" or will it be okay given gaps on the 2 hinge sides and the gap between the 2 doors? If not, how much should we build out the existing frame so that it fits properly?

Also, for the larger opening we can't decide if we should go with one turn style handle and one dummy, or two dummy handles and the door would be secured in place using one of those ball/recessed cup latches. Any recommendations?

I never use dummies (handles, haha) or allow my guys too. They are terrible. Drill your handle hole out but don't drill the 1" on the side for your double doors. Toss the guts of the handle out and screw the two ends together as normal. This allows the handle to operate like normal and you don't have to ever worry or deal with any kids/guests reefing on the dummy handle and ripping it off the door. Works great and doesn't come across as cheap.

As for the openings, Zarrel is right. Those margins are way to big to make up for. You'll end up having a 1/16" on the hinge side no matter what you do and almost 1/2" on the opposite. If you've got the know how and finesse, there are lots of ways to correct this but it helps if you're in it all the time - a professional. Personally in your case I would have the jambs taken out and build it properly. You need a rough opening that is 2" wider than your door both vertical and horizontal. For the double doors you need a 50" wide opening as it is 24*2+2".

It is also much easier to mortise the hinges in new for the door and jamb as opposed to trying to match existing. Can be done but not too much fun especially if you haven't done much of it before. If you're unsure, save yourself some frustration and find a finisher to help you out!

Hope that helps

[STAMPEDRED]

Originally Posted by zarrell

Half an inch is too large to make it look right. When I hang doors, my opening is 3/16" bigger than the door size. With double doors I go 1/4". If you want it to look right, you're better off taking the existing frame and doing it properly. Also, your existing frames will most certainly not be level or plumb, so getting a door to fit properly will be tough. For your double door, when you do get it in, pick up some rare earth magnets from Lee Valley. Put one on the top of the door and one on your frame. Silent, strong and much easier to install than a ball catch.

Now that is new to me. Do you find it works better than a ball catch?

[Locke]

French doors! Hah! Just like the French to open up and let you in without a fight!!

[shane_c]

Thanks again everyone,
I'm still a little confused though so could you answer these questions for me:

1) The current FINISHED opening is 49". Should I aim for a FINISHED opening of 48.5"? That would give gaps of 1/8 -- 1/4 -- 1/8? Or should it be 1/8 -- 1/8 -- 1/8, in which case the FINISHED opening should be 48-5/8"?

2) Instead of taking the door jams off and putting wood behind it to build them out could I just rip a piece to size on the table saw and use my nail gun to attach to the outside of the existing jam? It would be primed and painted to match all the existing trim. I'm concerned with doing it the other way because I may not find matching baseboard. Would pine be okay to build it out or is it too soft? I can find 1/2" pine but the narrowest MDF I can find is 5/8". I would use some longer screws on the hinges to go into the old jam.

3) If I go with the ball/plate latch should I have one at the top of each door and another where the doors meet?

[speede5]

Originally Posted by shane_c

1) The current FINISHED opening is 49". Should I aim for a FINISHED opening of 48.5"? That would give gaps of 1/8 -- 1/4 -- 1/8? Or should it be 1/8 -- 1/8 -- 1/8, in which case the FINISHED opening should be 48-5/8"?

48 1/4 would be the most I would recommend. You will end up with 1/16 on each hinge (as per Stampedred's post), leaving you with 1/8 in the middle. The middle needs to be tight but not too tight as the doors will bind as they are opened. It's easier to use a belt sander to fine tune the gap then to have to shim the doors out to close a gap. The tighter you make this the more you will have to bevel the edge to allow the doors to open without binding.

2) Instead of taking the door jams off and putting wood behind it to build them out could I just rip a piece to size on the table saw and use my nail gun to attach to the outside of the existing jam? It would be primed and painted to match all the existing trim. I'm concerned with doing it the other way because I may not find matching baseboard. Would pine be okay to build it out or is it too soft? I can find 1/2" pine but the narrowest MDF I can find is 5/8". I would use some longer screws on the hinges to go into the old jam.

You probably mean spruce, and it is pretty soft. You want the hinge screws anchored so they will have to protrude into the harder jamb, but even that might be old and dry and not a great base. I usually replace one of the hinge screws with a 3" to reach the stud. How is this going to match the existing casings? Are they painted? You would be far better off to remove everything and build it out. If you are worried about opening up a gap in the baseboards that can be fixed a few ways. Look around for a restoration supply/recycler in your area. Lots of people scrap the old for new and there are people who recycle old baseboards and moldings. If your casings are made to resemble a pillar, with a base, you could just replace the base (I'm sure there is a proper term for it I just don't know it.) with a larger piece. You should try and post a picture so we can see exactly what you need the finished product to look like.

3) If I go with the ball/plate latch should I have one at the top of each door and another where the doors meet?

Someone else will have to answer this, my doors had slide locks.

[shane_c]

My concern about this is that we get a lot of humidity here in the summer so with only 1/16” I’m sure it will be stuck, that’s why I was thinking 1/8”.

If I was to just add to the outside of the jam I have 2 options. Home Depot carries ½” pine that I could fasten to the existing jam and then notch a spot for the hinge but would use longer screws so that it goes well into the existing original jam. Or the second option is 5/8” primed MDF.

If I go with the ½” pine it only leaves me with ½” for gaps (1/8 – ¼ --- 1/8). If I went with the MDF it would leave me with 3/8” (1/8 – 1/8 – 1/8).

[speede5]

How were you planning to get 1/8 on the hinge side? If the hinges are installed properly (flush) they willl suck the door into the jamb and you will be at 1/16. The only way to get 1/8 is to have the hinge sitting proud of the jamb, which is not a good idea. Expansion shouldn't be an issue on the hinge side, it may close up your gap a bit in the middle, but not enough to bind. Maybe talk to a carpenter in your area, I am giving you opinion based on prarie humidity.

[STAMPEDRED]

Originally Posted by shane_c

...
3) If I go with the ball/plate latch should I have one at the top of each door and another where the doors meet?

The idea behind the ball catch is to have it at the top of the two doors near the middle of the jamb. I usually set it around 2-2.5" from the edge of the door. You will not need a ball catch where the two doors meet as in where a striker plate would go as the two ball catches at the top will hold the doors well. Unless you are making one door fixed closed - using a flush bolt, then there is no reason to use a ball catch as a striker. If you did have one door bolted close you would then use a handle as normal and router the striker plate into the fixed door.

If you are spending a couple of hundred dollars on doors or even more per which is more likely, then I would find someone to help you out on a Saturday or whatnot who does them for a living. Everything you mentioned as ideas with the jamb openings can be done, but you want to do it well and not look like it was a piece-meal thing in the end.

If your heart is set on leaving the jambs installed, then you need to make up 3/4" on the width of your opening to get to 48 1/4" as speede5 mentioned. You really have two options... add to the door width itself or the jamb.

Probably easier with the jamb. Pop the door stop off and toss it, you'll need new anyway. You'll need to buy a sheet of 3/8" mdf. Measure the width of the jamb. Typical mdf jamb is 4 5/8" wide. What ever yours is, subtract 1/4' and this is what you will rip the 3/8" mdf into.

I.E. mdf jamb is 4 5/8" minus 1/4" = 4 3/8"

Rip 4 strips at this measurement as you have one single door and one double door frame. Sand the edges up clean and break or round over the inside edge with an 1/8" round over so it isn't sharp to the touch. Cut your 4 long jamb legs to length, glue and install centered on your existing jamb. This will leave an 1/8" 'ledge' on either side of you existing jamb. You don't need to do the headers unless you want too. If you do then you need to cut the doors down in height to make up for the 3/8" added to the header.

Once you have this in, you need to use your hinge mortising jig, router with a collet as to mortise in your hinges. You can always chisel but you will be there for hours and will not have as clean or crisp of a fit as you would with using the hinge jig and router. Plus your mortises most likely won't line up perfectly which spells headaches! If you do this properly, and it only takes maybe 10 minutes to machine the door and the jamb you will be able to swing your doors right away. If you're no confident in maching the jamb and doors, pay someone to help you out. A bit cheaper than wrecking your doors, buuying new ones and paying someone the second time around to do it for you. I'm not trying to say you can't do it yourself. Kinda comes down to your level of confidence in yourself and having a decent understanding of how to make it work.

If you have anymore question, we'll do what we can to answer them!