Thoughts on suicide

[jayswin]

I was always one of those people that was really sympathetic towards those who were depressed, and even those who followed through and commited suicide. I know a lot of people see it as selfish and weak, and I'd always get a little defensive, saying that you never know what a person is going through, or how bad things are etc.

Unfortunitly, I have now been put to the test of backing up my feelings on suicide, and it's pretty hard to keep the same feelings towards it.

Basically, my last conversation with someone was them pleaing that they needed something from me to be okay, something I would have provided had I known the consequences. However, without knowing what would happen, I brushed it off, and explained that I wasn't in a position to help him right now. He then killed himself, leaving me with a guilt that simply won't go away.

The argument can be made that my encounter with him was just the final straw, and that you could blame any other downward event that led to his death equally, but that's impossible for me to see right now, as all I can see at this moment is...friend needing help - me not being able to provide it - suicide.

I'll continue to sympathize with depression and people that can't help themselves get better, and won't allow myself to have negative feelings towards this guy, or to get mad at him for the guilt he's left me with, as he paid the ultimate price and he's the one that deserves sympathy, not me.

However, my thoughts have been completely filled with guilt and images of him laying gased to death in his jeep, ever since I found out, and I can definitly see where people are coming from when they lash out at suicides and point to the freinds and family left to deal with it.

[jayswin]

Also, the fact that we're young (mid twenties) makes this even worse.

[I_am_Beast]

I've never blame the person who committs suicide, no one in their right mind would want to end their life.

Like they say it's a permanent solution to a temporary problem

It's a shame someone got to a place in their life where they felt this was all thats left.

But you don't know why this person was in that dark place, emotional, physical, mental....

If it's physical or mental then I'd blame the system we live in. Help should always be there when they don't have that choice..... it's not like you can take someones physical pain away with a ear and a cup of coffee...

Emotional , I blame the people around the person, if they never felt alone and that suicide was the way to end their troubles. Friends and family shouldn't just be there for the good times...

The people who rant and rave about it being selfish need to answer the question where were you when this took place? If you had no clue, honestly no clue that this person was in that position then you weren't truely a friend...and you have no right to cover up your guilt by transfering your in ablility to be a friend by pushing more sadness onto someone who obviously had too much to handle already.

Now i'm not saying your to blame, like i said odds are you don't know why he came to this conclusion. People really do need to communicate more...


We really need to take religion and how it's frowned upon out of our society. We all should be educated that in life we have some ups and downs, it's normal and your not unique....your not alone and here's how we can help....

[Da_Chief]

a cowardly act, give it time and even the worse can fix itself.

[Cowperson]

Originally Posted by flameswin

Basically, my last conversation with someone was them pleaing that they needed something from me to be okay, something I would have provided had I known the consequences. However, without knowing what would happen, I brushed it off, and explained that I wasn't in a position to help him right now. He then killed himself, leaving me with a guilt that simply won't go away.

In the end, the person chose the action they took and you shouldn't have a lingering guilt trip about it. You didn't put a gun to their head AND pull the trigger.

It sounds like they were asking for something that was excessive for your circumstances and that you wouldn't have normally provided.

And that's fine.

What happened after that might have happened anyway.

By the time your lifetime concludes, it is likely you'll know a few people who will have committed suicide, although this instance might be closer than most. I can think of four off the top of my head that I've known along the way.

Mourn . . . . . hold a warm place in your heart for the person if you choose . . . . . then move on.

Cowperson

[transplant99]

It's about 3 1/2 years ago now that I discovered my wife's best friend lifeless at the end of a rope. We both knew she had been having problems (she was bi-polar and on the absolute wrong meds on top of it all) as she had stayed with us for the last week of her life while work was done on her house. She made a solemn promise to my wife that she would do nothing drastic while things were worked out medically with my wifes help. Obviously she couldn't fulfill her end of the bargain.

Im still angry with her for that part of things as the whole guilt thing was taken on by my wife as it being her fault for any number of reasons. To top it off the womans family also looked our way to lay the blame as if we had any real say in what occurred. It was a very dark time.

But, with the benefit of hindsight both I and my wife realize that there was nothing at all we could of done different to prevent what happened. It was very pre-meditated as in her kitchen we discovered cheques written to pay all outstanding bills, letters written to all those close to her incuding my wife and her immediate family, her dogs had been put into a kennel and she had stopped in to visit them that day, etc etc. She was determined....and there was nothing anyone could of done or said to stop it.

My advice is very much like Cow's. Mourn the loss of a close friend, remeber the good stuff and then move on with your life. Otherwise he makes an even bigger impact by allowing you and possibly others to not live life to the fullest...something i doubt he even would of wanted.

Sorry for your loss, but as the old cliche states, life must go on.

[4X4]

You can't live your life as a slave to everyone else's emotions. Being a friend is one thing, being a pushover is another. If you think that dude offed himself because you didn't rent drums and play with him, you need to realize that there were probably ten other things in his life that were worse than that (or so he felt) and jamming would have been a temporary high to distract him from the despair he was feeling.
In other words, jamming would have maybe postponed the suicide, but it would have done nothing to stop it. So you can't carry the guilt. I know it's easy for me, an anonymous internet poster to say, but seriously... It ain't your fault.

IMO, the real tragedy when someone commits suicide is the guilt that friends and family are left feeling. I'm sure sometimes it's justified, but most of the time it's not. In this case, it's not. Flameswin, again, it's not your fault. You were neither the cause or even the catalyst. It is a bit freaky to have been so close to someone that does this, but it doesn't make it your fault.

Like Cow said, it's likely that you'll know a few people over the years that do this. Some will be closer to you, some will just be associates, it's a fact of life. Maybe I'm numb to it now because off the top of my head I can recall 4 people that were fairly close that have killed themselves. All 4 were senseless. There was no real despair. They must have been mentally ill or something. Something that wasn't visible on the surface. Something that a doctor needed to prescribe meds for. Not a one of them would still be here if their friend jammed with them.

Not.Your.Fault.

Feel sad. Don't feel guilty.

[Jedi Ninja]

You really can't blame yourself. Have you considered seeking out support resources to help you deal with this guilt?

[The Fonz]

Flameswin, you have to understand that when someone is that close to suicide, they've obviously got some very deep rooted problems that go years back, and I'd say they're likely even mentally unstable.

The problems this guy had to have been going thru could not have been fixed by whatever it was he had asked of you that day. Very best case scenario IMHO, if you had agreed, perhaps the suicide would have been delayed a day or 2. That doesn't fix anything.

Don't feel like it's your fault, your friend was at the end of the line, and when someone is that far gone they are usually pretty determined to end it.

[Displaced Flames fan]

What a brutal situation you've been put in.

It's not your fault.

I sympathize with your friend's problems leading up to the event, but what he did to you is almost unforgivable.

I'm sorry for your loss.

[FlamesAddiction]

I was dating this girl for a couple of years and she committed suicide a few months after we broke up. I moved out and left town, but she kept emailing me about how depressed she was. Eventually I stopped replying and the emails stopped and I thought she was over it, but it wasn't until about 2 years later that I found out she actually killed herself. Going back through my unread emails, the last one was a few days before she died. It really disturbed me for a while.

The fact of the matter is though, she was an emotional wreck before I met her. She was a victim of child abuse and had many problems. Still, I can't help but feel that maybe I could have helped.

[Bibtin Tex]

it;s not your fault

if they committed suicide they were obviously suffering so i doubt that anything you did or didn't do had much of an effect on their emotional state

if you knew that they were depressed you probably should have tried to help them by getting the to a hospital so they don't hurt themselves, but again it's not your fault, it was their own fault for not finding the proper help among doctors or family + friends

[redforever]

I have known 4 people who committed suicide. One, myself and 6 others saw her socially for the entire evening prior to her committing suicide. She exhibited no symptoms that any of us saw there was a problem, but the next morning, she shot herself. We did however find out later from her husband that she had recently been diagnosed with bi-polar disorder and that she was undergoing therapy and treatment for it. These people are quite often very good at disguising their symptoms from the general public too.

At her funeral, someone who deals with suicide spoke to all gathered.

The first thing we were told, it is not your fault that this happened and it is not your fault if you never saw the signs and it is not your fault if you did see the signs but could not get help for the individual. There are many things in life that we have no control over.

The people who commit suicide are suffering from mental illness. Not they probably are suffereing from mental illness, but they ARE suffering from mental illness. As such, at that point in their lives, they do not have the mental capacity to realize that those left behind are the ones who suffer... not only do they grieve for the individual who is gone, but they suffer from guilt wondering if there was anything they could have done to prevent it. Many people will say those who commit suicide are selfish, what they really are is mentally ill.

And at that point in their lives, they do not have the mental capacity to actually see that they are suffering from a mental disorder....thus many will not seek counselling even though others might have suggested it to them. And in many cases, people close to the individual did see the signs, did get the person into counselling, did get the person on medication and did try to help in every way possible....but the suicide still happened.

Of course, suicide is not always inevitable. Many have been helped through this difficult period in their lives. But when dealing with mental illness, the medical field is just at the tip of the iceberg. So much has yet to be learned about mental illness before treatments become more effective and more routine. Mental illness causes so much pain to the individual that they see suicide as the only alternative to getting rid of that pain. It is sad that it is a fact that treating a physical malady is much eaiser than treating mental illness.

I hope you find peace and a way to get rid of your guilt. As someone else suggested, it is probably a good idea to get some grief counselling.

[Phanuthier]

Originally Posted by FlamesAddiction

I was dating this girl for a couple of years and she committed suicide a few months after we broke up. I moved out and left town, but she kept emailing me about how depressed she was. Eventually I stopped replying and the emails stopped and I thought she was over it, but it wasn't until about 2 years later that I found out she actually killed herself. Going back through my unread emails, the last one was a few days before she died. It really disturbed me for a while.

The fact of the matter is though, she was an emotional wreck before I met her. She was a victim of child abuse and had many problems. Still, I can't help but feel that maybe I could have helped.

I was a in a similar situation a few years ago with an ex and the emails. She was probably just on the edge of offing herself, and she wanted something I couldn't (wouldn't?) offer her... I think she's fine now, though there probably isn't a person in this world she hates more now. Anyways... to flameswin, I'm sure more then a few of us have been in the situation you were in, and just had to walk away because it was too much... I don't think you should feel obligated here.

I also agree, suicide is selfish.

[flip]

Had a close friend that killed himself. It was pretty devastating for his friends and family but in the end I think all the cowardly labels are stupid, although it is selfish, but hey IMO it is your life you don't have a responsibility to your family to live.

IMO you don't want to live, you don't have to, it is your life. And my friend was only like 16 and even though I'm sure he didn't properly think it through and shouldn't have done it I don't hold a grudge. I'm sure his family will never be the same and didn't deserve it etc and I'm also sure if one of his friends would have noticed he wasn't happy we would have been glad to help him out.

Like I said though, in the end it was his choice and I don't blame him. Just accept the fact that your friend made an irreversible decision and it was one that your friend made despite your willingness to help. If their life was so horrible maybe they are happier in death than in life.

I guess my point is don't let it get you down. Everyone always says things will get better, well your friend obviously couldn't see that. Everyone says there are other options, well your friend obviously didn't see that. What I'm trying to say is that only people who aren't suicidal say stupid crap like that. Maybe your friend genuinely thought his life wasn't getting any better and wasn't going to. Respect his decision, albeit crappy.


On a side note at least they actually meant to commit suicide. I knew of a guy, about a year after my friend killed himself, who was found naked in his room, wearing all of his hockey medals, with a tie around his neck...and his hand around his junk. Dude was doing auto-erotic asphyxiation and choked himself a little too hard. Try explaining that to a bunch of 16/17 year olds.

[jayswin]

Originally Posted by I_am_Beast

Emotional , I blame the people around the person, if they never felt alone and that suicide was the way to end their troubles. Friends and family shouldn't just be there for the good times...

The people who rant and rave about it being selfish need to answer the question where were you when this took place? If you had no clue, honestly no clue that this person was in that position then you weren't truely a friend...and you have no right to cover up your guilt by transfering your in ablility to be a friend by pushing more sadness onto someone who obviously had too much to handle already.

Now i'm not saying your to blame, like i said odds are you don't know why he came to this conclusion. People really do need to communicate more...

Yeah, but sometimes people (especially guys) hide emotional pain, which makes it impossible to be there for them. How are you suppose to help them if everytime you see them they're happy and laughing, and only show their true depression/struggles when they're alone?

[Dion]

"Suicide is not a matter of choice. The profound depression that motivates most suicides is a disease. This disease causes a level of pain so profound that it twists one’s ability to assess risk, to make good choices, to maintain a sense of future possibilities. When people act out of this depression, they are not exercising free choice. They are falling victim to a disease. This disease is not about logic or self interest. It is about an immediate desire to be dead"

[flip]

Originally Posted by Dion

"Suicide is not a matter of choice. The profound depression that motivates most suicides is a disease. This disease causes a level of pain so profound that it twists one’s ability to assess risk, to make good choices, to maintain a sense of future possibilities. When people act out of this depression, they are not exercising free choice. They are falling victim to a disease. This disease is not about logic or self interest. It is about an immediate desire to be dead"

Ok well that doesn't meet the definition of disease but ok. Disorder maybe but suicide (much like alcoholism) is not a disease.

[GirlySports]

I'll echo others. It's not your fault!

A person who contemplates suicide already had many many issues. You are analyzing this rationally and it's tearing you apart but a person who comtemplates suicide is not rational so you can't predict what might have been. Think of it like a glass full of water. You are the unfortunate one where your action, or non action, may have been the extra drop of water but sooner or later that glass would overflow anyways.

[Dion]

Originally Posted by flip

Ok well that doesn't meet the definition of disease but ok. Disorder maybe but suicide (much like alcoholism) is not a disease.

Maybe it's not a disase by your definition - no problem. The point i tried to make is that suicide is not a choice. Rational minded people don't chose to end thier life. They want to live and live life to it's fullest. We're talking about a mental illness that distorts a persons thinking. An emotional pain that becomes so strong that it drives them to kill themselves.