Shocking New Video Out of Tibet: Beating and Killing of Tibetans by China

[TangerZ]

Hi folks, for any casual observers of the Tibet-China issue, you may not be aware of this, so I will preface this footage by saying it is EXTREMELY RARE and difficult to obtain footage like this from Tibet. In recent months, leading up to sensitive political anniversaries in March and April, all Tibetan areas have been closed off to foreign visitors and reporters to prevent information from leaking out (Why is the rest of China more open than Tibet and experiencing changes if Tibet is truly a part of China? And why was martial law employed in Tibet of all places, when China first officially declared martial law? Why is Tibet treated so obstinately in China, while the rest of China changes?)In fact, in late 2008 and early 2009 several Tibetans were arrested for giving information to Westerners about protests and killings in Tibet, and sentenced from 2-10 years in prison for spreading rumors and plotting to split the Motherland. How can Tibetans be happy with this, and why are foreigners and Western supporters of Tibet being blamed by China for China bashing, if the Chinese themselves do not create a climate for dialogue, or a space of confidence between Chinese and Tibetans to grow. If Tibetans are fearful of truly expressing themselves to Chinese for risk of punishment, how is this issue ever going to be solved? Invariably Tibetans turn to the international community to support them, as they have no voice in Tibet, and their Chinese brothers and sisters won't believe them. Chinese always ask Tibetans for proof, but it's China's government solely interested in their own narrative of events, that causes this gap of information between Tibetans and Chinese. How can Tibetans prove the killings, without approval to dig up mass graves, or have the right to email pictures to the outside world without dire consequences, or without the luxury of foreign or independent reporting? This video was released today by the Tibetan administration in exile, as it was sent overseas at great risk. I caution you, because the images are graphic towards the end of the clip. Thanks for viewing, and I appreciate any discussion on the topic.

Footage below:

http://blip.tv/file/1903244

[jar_e]

Not really that shocking...I kinda figured everyone presumed this happened regardless what the Chinese government said.

[Tower]

It's too bad they don't have oil to drill and monopolize in Tibet. The UN and Coalitions might just have a "real" excuse to move in.

[jammies]

Half an hour and no Chinese gov't apologists yet? Must be busy elsewhere at the moment, but I'll fill in:

"I went over there and wasn't even beaten once!"
"Westerners just don't understand the cultural traditions that venerate thuggery and obedience to the all-seeing State!"
"A land of corruption IS a land of opportunity!"
"Nothing like emigrating and then reminiscing about how great it is for the people stuck behind!"
"Our Western-inspired political system fits the Chinese people perfectly, and you guys haven't come up with anything we like since Stalin."

[Mean Mr. Mustard]

It is a crap situation for sure - that being said there is nothing that can realistically be done in order to change anything other than weakhearted political posturing and small public efforts to bring about change that ultimately mean nothing to the Chinese government.

[Daradon]

The only way things ever change is to vote with your pocketbook. Now with the sheer amount of stuff that comes out of China it's really hard to know, but if people make a conscious effort, eventually things happen.

For all those that feel like jumping on that comment, at least it's better than doing nothing.

But think if people stopped buying Disney toys for their kids cause they were made in China. You get enough big companies to adjust their trade/employment situations in China and things will start to move down the right path.

Move like molasses probably but at least it's movement in the right direction.

The biggest problem is people all wring their hands and cry out how horrible this kinda stuff is, but are unwilling to do a little extra homework, or go without a few extra luxuries to help try to end it.

[starseed]

It is a horrible situation to be in. They are powerless against a powerful police state. Foreign powers cannot do anything about it with force, because China has nuclear weapons, and the capability to repel any type of invasion.

Human history dictates that if they are ever going to gain their freedom, there will be a lot of bloodshed and devastation ahead.

[Daradon]

Originally Posted by starseed

It is a horrible situation to be in. They are powerless against a powerful police state. Foreign powers cannot do anything about it with force, because China has nuclear weapons, and the capability to repel any type of invasion.

Even if they didn't, I don't think the governments would want to ruin their trade agreements. Heck China basically OWNS the US now through debt. Can you imagine how that conversation would go?

Originally Posted by starseed

Human history dictates that if they are ever going to gain their freedom, there will be a lot of bloodshed and devastation ahead.

Probably right unfortunately. And even then, I don't see how they could do it. Unless they raise such a commotion and there is so much violence the international community HAS to step in. Even then, I don't see it happening.

[starseed]

Originally Posted by Daradon

The only way things ever change is to vote with your pocketbook. Now with the sheer amount of stuff that comes out of China it's really hard to know, but if people make a conscious effort, eventually things happen.

For all those that feel like jumping on that comment, at least it's better than doing nothing.

But think if people stopped buying Disney toys for their kids cause they were made in China. You get enough big companies to adjust their trade/employment situations in China and things will start to move down the right path.

Move like molasses probably but at least it's movement in the right direction.

The biggest problem is people all wring their hands and cry out how horrible this kinda stuff is, but are unwilling to do a little extra homework, or go without a few extra luxuries to help try to end it.

Personally, I am skeptical that any type of economic embargo will persuade them to change their form of government. If anything, I think it will tighten the government's grip on the people even more. Open borders and a free flow of ideas is the best possible way to peacefully influence the people of China to demand a less restrictive, more open, and more just society imho.

[Daradon]

Originally Posted by starseed

Personally, I am skeptical that any type of economic embargo will persuade them to change their form of government. If anything, I think it will tighten the government's grip on the people even more. Open borders and a free flow of ideas is the best possible way to peacefully influence the people of China to demand a less restrictive, more open, and more just society imho.

I'm kinda thinking that too. However this is a little bit of a different situation. Tibet is like an occupied state, it's not really a great example of Chinese society.

I also heard Chinese nationalism is higher than it has been in a long time, so open society and open ideas might not be the be all and end all either. There is a lot of support for the governments actions, and not a lot of truth about their actions within the borders.

But yeah, it's a tough situation. Impossible to know how, or if anything can, help.

I guess I just try to do my best not to 'support' it.

[Phanuthier]

Originally Posted by starseed

Personally, I am skeptical that any type of economic embargo will persuade them to change their form of government.

I'm the same way. I don't have too much to respond here that hasn't already been said, but I sent this to TangerZ a few months ago via PM since its incredibly hard to bring an alternative argument without responses like the above from jammies. (For what its worth, I thought TangerZ was understanding of the idea as well.)

I thought what you said was a good post and I agree, the people on both sides have to work together to resolve this issue. I think both sides (the chinese government and the Tibet separatist extremists) are both idiots, and there has to be a common resolution on both sides. I think both sides have a legitamate argument, and while I don't agree with violence (on either side, and you have to admit this isn't one side) my criticism before was that China isn't the only one.

<snip reason>, I know how China can be. I've heard lots of stories and personal incidents of China. I knew enough that most of <snip - people I know> fled Hong Kong in 1996, just before the handover cause of China's less then liberal laws. So trust me when I say this, I'm not China's biggest pom pom weaver myself and China isn't on my list of places I want to live. However, my only argument is that China isn't the only one guilty here. The USA did it with Cuba, Mexico and half of Latin America is pretty sketchy with these types of rules, Britain didn't let their colonies seperate easily either. This is a David-vs-Goliath every major country does over the little guy, be it political (Tibet), oil (Nigeria), stretegic (USA-Cambodia) and so on. But, closed minded <filtered word> here won't understand that, and think there's only one evil: The Commies, Russians and Chinese.

China definately has a long ways to go, no doubt. And as you said, they are progressively getting there. Tibet, obviously, is a issue that will get tackled at some point. My argument before was that people think of China like they are the commies during the Cold War, and thats just not true. Lots of stupid things in China, lots of stupid things here (read: Gitmo). Socially, the USA definately has a stronger infrustructure (not always common sense though! Some stupid laws here that get laughed at by the Chinese as they think we're morons as well, so we arn't perfect here as well. Its really annoying here when sheltered Westerners who don't know a damn thing about whats outside of Canada point their nose at everyone else and say they're doing it wrong.

There are alot of social issues and social structure that need to be developed for resolutions like this to succeed, and steps are getting there. In the past 10 years, China has without a doubt made huge huge gains in loosening up, opening their borders not just to people and business, but ideas as well. I hope China retains alot of its conservative values, but its gains we've seen in the past 10 years (largely without Westerners knowing) that are instrumental for China to be able to work up that social structure to resolve this issue with Tibet. <snip - bad word> foreigners like the dumb Canadians on the Great Wall only push China backwards from developing and opening up to new ideas; when China opens its doors to the world after thousands of years and welcomes new people and ideas, and these ideas start to rearrange their home and litter their house, they're going to tighten those ideas that were freely coming in before. Its the people on the bandwagon who decide to pile on that are pushing this issue deeper and deeper, not making it better, and quite frankly, I think they're completely stupid for doing that. (This is coming from someone who understands how the Chinese think and how they react to these things)

Anyways, I just wanted to reiterate that I'm saying China is at no fault, and I repeat, China and Tibet at some time have to come together to work on a resolution that works for both sides. For that to happen, that will happen within the boarders and it will take alot of time; not for people who have no idea wtf is going on to try and embarrass them and demand change.

Just my thoughts, hope you view this with an open mind.

[starseed]

Originally Posted by Daradon

Even if they didn't, I don't think the governments would want to ruin their trade agreements. Heck China basically OWNS the US now through debt. Can you imagine how that conversation would go?

True, China's influence and emerging financial power continue to make world leaders shy away from calling it like it is. There would be a much louder outcry from the international community if they were not becoming an economic superpower.

Originally Posted by Daradon

Probably right unfortunately. And even then, I don't see how they could do it. Unless they raise such a commotion and there is so much violence the international community HAS to step in. Even then, I don't see it happening.

I also think it will be unlikely, it will probably be a long process. In another thread about the Tibetan protests, it was mentioned that China has changed a lot over the last 15 years for the better... hopefully they will start to move in the right direction, and China will ease up on their grip over the people. It just is terrible that Tibet, Taiwan and others are under the malevolent control of a totalitarian government.

[jammies]

All I have to say is that our duty as citizens of the world is to point out injustice wherever it can be found, sparing our own faults even less than those of others. Criticism is the foundation of a modern, pluralistic society and does not need the consent of the criticized to be pertinent.

The present era is characterized by the involvement of the public in legitimizing government, and the exercise of the right to free speech is a necessary outgrowth of that involvement. Regimes who violently suppress free speech, association, and other expressions of the public will are anachronisms fueled by corruption and beholden to the elites that control them; we who are free to protest need to stand in for those under such regimes who dare not.

To excuse these despots in the hopes they will reform on their own is what is truly naive; they worship the rule of force and understand only that we are weak when we fear to condemn their actions. To quote Barry Goldwater, the last truly great Republican: "Extremism in defense of liberty is no vice. Tolerance in the face of tyranny is no virtue."

[GirlySports]

Originally Posted by Daradon

I'm kinda thinking that too. However this is a little bit of a different situation. Tibet is like an occupied state, it's not really a great example of Chinese society.

Sadly Tibet's never been a state so China has full control over them just like any other country has over any of its own regions. Most civilized countries treat their regions fairly but China chooses not to. Unfortunately that's their right.

Extreme case but if Canada refused to let Quebec speak french, or practice its religion, or make it own laws and beat up every Quebecker that pissed off Harper... there's nothing Quebec or the world could do about it.

[Phanuthier]

Originally Posted by starseed

It is a horrible situation to be in. They are powerless against a powerful police state. Foreign powers cannot do anything about it with force, because China has nuclear weapons, and the capability to repel any type of invasion.

Human history dictates that if they are ever going to gain their freedom, there will be a lot of bloodshed and devastation ahead.

I don't think so, I don't think the China will follow the happenings of the West. What needs to happen is China needs to be encouraged to change, not to be embarassed. Many here (example: jammies) have idealized political science theories of how the uprising of the peasants, with pitchforks and fire, and the the civil servants blah blah blah. In reality, China doesn't do that. If you try and embarass China, they close their doors to you completely. History has shown that, they do not "bend over" to demands - they will ignore you. China is very conservative, and very proud.

What needs to happen, is they need to be encouraged. It a round about way and it sounds like pampering, but its the best road to achieving human rights in China, if that is your objective (I feel here some feel the objective is to display their outrage and "get back" at China for their wrong doings, not to solve the problem). Economic pressures just don't work, especially not at this time when you have the country that normally "polices" the world asking to borrow money from China. On an individual case by case basis, sure you could protest and buy patriotic shoes, but there are too many Wal-Mart shoppers and large business's and their products are so international you just arn't able to shut them out - typing on your computer who's CPU has at least some part design/fab in Shanghai, or the shoes that you march onto Chinas front door that say: "Made in China."

Its going to take time, and its going to take patience and I hope at least those who are in power realize that there is a difference between trying to solve the problem, and whatever the hell jammies said.

(... and quite frankly, what TangerZ showed is happening to the Tibetians, isn't all of it; I have seen much worse crimes in China...)

[GirlySports]

Originally Posted by Phanuthier

(... and quite frankly, what TangerZ showed is happening to the Tibetians, isn't all of it; I have seen much worse crimes in China...)

Yup in other areas too.. anyone in China who is not a 'Han" is getting abused.

[Hack&Lube]

Originally Posted by GirlySports

Yup in other areas too.. anyone in China who is not a 'Han" is getting abused.

To alleviate the confusions of CPers who may wonder why people other than Han Solo get abused in China, Han Chinese is to China as....I don't know. White Anglo Saxon Protestant is to American. Sort of the main/dominant racial/cultural group even though China is made up of many, many other subgroups and regions.

[Bagor]

Originally Posted by Phanuthier

What needs to happen, is they need to be encouraged.

What do you mean by this? Encourage them how?

[Phanuthier]

Originally Posted by Bagor

What do you mean by this? Encourage them how?

Ideas have to keep on moving freely into China, the way they have been the past 15 years. Encouragement on person to person, businesses with China and coming into China, and yes at a government level, but the encouragement has to be constructive, not to try and embarrass them.

But more then anything, people who move to China and people who go in and out of China bring in ideas, and I bet its hugely underestimated how much of an effect this has. China wants to encourage interraction, and when people come in with ideas, China always wants to know what they can do to try and promote themselves. Its a little more turbulent then most regime changes, but if you compare then versus a (say) Russia, China is very obviously more willing to open up and try these new ideas coming.

This is going to take time though, all problems are not going to get solved in a day or a week.

But... if critics decide to get overzealous and try and make waves, history (and just knowing the Chinese) shows that China will shut their doors and with it, ideas will stop coming in.

[Thor]

Too bad youtube wasn't around for us too see how the upper class of Tibet would make slaves of normal people and give them no education or any hope at all, but to be growing up as slaves.

Penn and Teller educate you:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fYEOSCIOnrs