Growing problem, Islam and Free Speech...

[Thor]

Yet another incident shows us how we have to be fighting back to ensure the west continues to be about free speech and not sensitivity training.

This article criticizing the recent UN Rapporteur who was in charge of guarding free speech has had his job title manipulated by Islamic countries to now look for instances of "offense being done to Islam." This article has caused rioting, and the arrest of a Indian journalist who re-published this article in India in support of free speech.

Here's the original article (UK):

The right to criticise religion is being slowly doused in acid. Across the world, the small, incremental gains made by secularism – giving us the space to doubt and question and make up our own minds – are being beaten back by belligerent demands that we "respect" religion. A historic marker has just been passed, showing how far we have been shoved. The UN rapporteur who is supposed to be the global guardian of free speech has had his job rewritten – to put him on the side of the religious censors.

http://www.independent.co.uk/opinion...s-1517789.html

The resulting story of the editor being arrested for the reprinting:

The editor and publisher of a major Indian newspaper have been arrested for "hurting the religious feelings" of Muslims after they reprinted an article from The Independent. Ravindra Kumar and Anand Sinha, the editor and publisher of the Kolkata-based English daily The Statesman, appeared in court yesterday charged under section 295A of the Indian Penal Code which forbids "deliberate and malicious acts intended to outrage religious feelings".

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/wo...s-1607256.html

The follow up to the original article on the rioting and the editors arrest in India by the original writer:

http://www.independent.co.uk/opinion...e-1608059.html

[missdpuck]

Ridiculous.

[Thor]

Also since its very relevant, Christopher Hitchens on Free Speech in 3 parts, about 20 minutes in total, excellent stuff. Filmed in 2006 here in Canada and he also talks about Canada's free speech issues today.

Part 1: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=X3Hg-Y7MugU
Part 2: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Xq1e4cfvUKE
Part 3: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=y3OTS5gSO0E

[TheDragon]

Speakin' out against Islam? That's a riotin'!

[blankall]

Originally Posted by Thor

Also since its very relevant, Christopher Hitchens on Free Speech in 3 parts, about 20 minutes in total, excellent stuff. Filmed in 2006 here in Canada and he also talks about Canada's free speech issues today.

Part 1: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=X3Hg-Y7MugU
Part 2: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Xq1e4cfvUKE
Part 3: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=y3OTS5gSO0E

Great link.

I've always had somewhat mixed feelings about Christopher's Hitchens's views on David Irving, but he most certainly builds a very strong case.

I agree with a lot of his ideology. However, he seems to blame a lot of hatred on our own stupidity but fails to give a solid alternative to laws that limit freedom of speech.

I would also like to answer his question about who would judge what speech is acceptable if limits are put on freedom of speech..... the same person who judges whether any crimes have been committed... a judge.

All in all, I agree with a lot of his ideas. I do, however, there is a limit where freedom of speech crosses a line from mere speech into inciting violence and amounts to uttering a threat. The standard for this should be quite high, and we should allow the vast majority of speech.

[Da_Chief]

Across the world, the small, incremental gains made by secularism – giving us the space to doubt and question and make up our own minds – are being beaten back by belligerent demands that we "respect" religion.

How do you make up you own mind when you have articles bashing one of the sides?

If you read propaganda long enough, you will believe it. One thing to have free speech but another thing to use that free speech to provoke insecure people (I'm obviously not saying all muslims are insecure) but there are groups who make this their business. In places like India, Pakistan not a smart thing to write/reprint articles like these. You're just giving these groups a reason to create havoc. Not good.

You have to respect you're free speech and use it wisely.

[Resolute 14]

There is a very good reason why Islam fights free speech: Religion is all about control, and if people are given the right to hear dissenting opinion, religious leaders lose their power. Christian leaders lost their hold on secular life long ago after people began to gain the right to think for themselves. Islamic Imams don't want to lose their ability to brainwash their sheep in the same fashion.

[HPLovecraft]

Islam doesn't fight free speech, those in control use Islam to fight free speech. People should get it right. Same with Catholicism and any other organized religion, basically. When you start labeling Islam as if it's some sort of dominant Sauron-type entity perched in a desert fortress, you begin to walk the edge of judging and labeling an entire people, regardless of anything other than their religious creed.

[Hemi-Cuda]

Originally Posted by HPLovecraft

Islam doesn't fight free speech, those in control use Islam to fight free speech. People should get it right. Same with Catholicism and any other organized religion, basically. When you start labeling Islam as if it's some sort of dominant Sauron-type entity perched in a desert fortress, you begin to walk the edge of judging and labeling an entire people, regardless of anything other than their religious creed.

doesn't the Quran say something about killing non-believers?

ah, here it is

002.191
YUSUFALI: And slay them wherever ye catch them, and turn them out from where they have Turned you out; for tumult and oppression are worse than slaughter; but fight them not at the Sacred Mosque, unless they (first) fight you there; but if they fight you, slay them. Such is the reward of those who suppress faith.

sounds like the religion itself is based on fighting free speech to me. this is a beauty as well

3:151
We will cast terror into the hearts of those who disbelieve, because they set up with Allah that for which He has sent down no authority, and their abode is the fire, and evil is the abode of the unjust.

[blankall]

Originally Posted by Hemi-Cuda

doesn't the Quran say something about killing non-believers?

ah, here it is

002.191
YUSUFALI: And slay them wherever ye catch them, and turn them out from where they have Turned you out; for tumult and oppression are worse than slaughter; but fight them not at the Sacred Mosque, unless they (first) fight you there; but if they fight you, slay them. Such is the reward of those who suppress faith.

sounds like the religion itself is based on fighting free speech to me. this is a beauty as well

3:151
We will cast terror into the hearts of those who disbelieve, because they set up with Allah that for which He has sent down no authority, and their abode is the fire, and evil is the abode of the unjust.

If you interpret any holy text literally it can be used to promote some pretty awful stuff.

It seems like any religion can arbitrarily pick passages that can be used to oppress others.

For instance there are many jews and christians who might use the bible as proof that gay marriage shouldn't be illegal but then totally ignore other laws on the grounds they are obscure or outdated.

[Hemi-Cuda]

Originally Posted by blankall

If you interpret any holy text literally it can be used to promote some pretty awful stuff.

It seems like any religion can arbitrarily pick passages that can be used to oppress others.

For instance there are many jews and christians who might use the bible as proof that gay marriage shouldn't be illegal but then totally ignore other laws on the grounds they are obscure or outdated.

well my point was that Islam is based on the writings in the Quran, so it directly oppresses free speech and it's not just the governments in charge like the previous poster suggested. i am fully aware of how hypocritical most religions are in the world, they all pick and choose the passages they want to believe from their "word of God" books and conveniently ignore the stuff they don't agree with

[Thor]

Originally Posted by blankall

If you interpret any holy text literally it can be used to promote some pretty awful stuff.

It seems like any religion can arbitrarily pick passages that can be used to oppress others.

For instance there are many jews and christians who might use the bible as proof that gay marriage shouldn't be illegal but then totally ignore other laws on the grounds they are obscure or outdated.

This is the evolution of the 3 major religions, Islam is still in the dark ages, they are ripe for Jihad; their modern crusades if you will.

While most of Christianity, Catholicism, Judaism have moved mostly away from literalism and much of the strong dogma of those faiths has eroded to whats called moderate religion of what we see today. That move to moderate belief is probably a big reason why you see so many splinter groups and why the literalists are so loud today because they see the moderates as traitors to their religion.

Where as the crusades were fully justified from the same book that people follow today, the Islamic world is now using their fear of the west and the propaganda from their own leaders and priests to create this feeling of the west and Christianity are out to get us Muslims.

Their TV/Radio, Newspapers, Schools, Mosques, social discussions are all ruled by this perpetuated idea that the west is in Arab lands in order to push down Islam, to spread Christianity and/or to destroy Islam and rule the world.

That fear/belief they have is then used nicely to give a lot of power to the extremists and cause the moderates to keep quiet for fear of being labeled or even charged/murdered for being heretics to Islam.

It doesn't help that much of the Islamic world is a Theocracy and people live without freedoms we would never accept.

Its really the sad fact that Arab culture used to be the modern culture in Science, Music, Art, Literature while they looked down upon Europe as a backwards place. Then Islam took a turn for the worse, and now as we see it today its a backwards, Science illiterate, socially repressed, dictatorial and theocraticly run societies.

[SebC]

The UN will become irrelevant if this keeps up. It cannot act as a protector of human rights if it operates as a democracy and the majority of countries oppose human rights.

[CaptainCrunch]

Originally Posted by SebC

The UN will become irrelevant if this keeps up. It cannot act as a protector of human rights if it operates as a democracy and the majority of countries oppose human rights.

Will become?

[peter12]

Originally Posted by Da_Chief

How do you make up you own mind when you have articles bashing one of the sides?

If you read propaganda long enough, you will believe it. One thing to have free speech but another thing to use that free speech to provoke insecure people (I'm obviously not saying all muslims are insecure) but there are groups who make this their business. In places like India, Pakistan not a smart thing to write/reprint articles like these. You're just giving these groups a reason to create havoc. Not good.

You have to respect you're free speech and use it wisely.

That's called masochism. Publish and say what you want, you aren't responsible for how people react.