Any American Trained Lawyers on CP?

[pria(kin)16]

I'm currently a 2L at school in Florida and am planning on coming home to practice. I am familiar with the NCA process and plan on writing a state bar close to home (Washington/Oregon) once I complete my degree. Are there any CPers who have gone through the NCA process coming from the states? Any tips on 2nd year summer jobs or anything that might help my application? Any information from any lawyers is greatly appreciated.

[troutman]

Can't you write the Alberta bar exam directly, without having to write one in a US state first?

[pria(kin)16]

Before I can write any provincial bar exam I have to be accredited by the NCA as having equivalent legal education as a Canadian law student. One of the factors the accreditation committee looks to is Bar entrance/license to practice. Once accredited I can write the Alberta bar or whatever bar I want, but I still have to find an articling position after (which I'm really worried about). When they accredit you they either recommend challenge exams in Canadian areas of law or require you to attend Canadian law school for 1-2 years (which would be a nightmare). To put it in perspective they approved 45/103 American applicants last year and 60/90 the year before so its kind of a crapshoot. The people they dont approve can appeal but basically are screwed.


Canada in general is brutal about letting foreign trained lawyers in. I scored a 162 on my LSAT (87th Percentile) and still couldn't get into a Canadian school (I had crappy 2nd year marks, amazing how it still haunts me academically). Ideally I want to come back to Canada right after I graduate, but the employment prospects down here are probably better for me and I wont have to deal with the accreditation head ache. Sorry for the rants, just wanted to provide some background.

[troutman]

IIRC, Pennsylvania is known for having the easiest bar exam. If you can hold a pen, you will pass. California is the most difficult.

[cyclone3483]

Originally Posted by troutman

IIRC, Pennsylvania is known for having the easiest bar exam. If you can hold a pen, you will pass. California is the most difficult.

Troutman, where did you write your exam? That one must have been easy too....

[@theCBE]

I am currently undergoing the NCA process, writing my first 3 exams in Jan. I didn't go to law school in the US though so I'm not sure how writing the bar will impact your application but it definately can't hurt. There is a place on the application form that specifically asks whether you have been admitted to the bar and what practical legal experience you have had. If you are planning on applying for a summer internship at a canadian law firm you would probably want to do that ASAP because i'm pretty sure most of the deadlines for the summer of 09 are in November. At least at the big law firms.

Besides that all I can tell you is to get your application in as early as you can. NCA takes at least 3 months to evaluate an application.

[troutman]

Originally Posted by cyclone3483

Troutman, where did you write your exam? That one must have been easy too....

Pete's Peanut Pub.

[Rathji]

I know this is off-topic but I know nothing about what it takes to be a lawyer. I have always been interested though. You go to school and then you need to pass the bar and then you can practice law in a certian area.

So my question is this: What if you don't go to school, but can pass the bar? Can you still practice law? If not, then what does the bar exam do that makes it so important to pass before you can practice law?

[troutman]

Originally Posted by Rathji

I know this is off-topic but I know nothing about what it takes to be a lawyer. I have always been interested though. You go to school and then you need to pass the bar and then you can practice law in a certian area.

So my question is this: What if you don't go to school, but can pass the bar? Can you still practice law? If not, then what does the bar exam do that makes it so important to pass before you can practice law?

http://www.lawsocietyalberta.com/mem...tudentinfo.cfm

If you wish to become a member of the legal profession in Alberta, you must be of good character and reputation, meet the academic qualifications, successfully complete a bar admission course and serve a term of articles.

See sections 37(1) and 40(1) of the Legal Profession Act.

You must have obtained a Canadian common law degree or an equivalent qualification, after which you may then apply for student-at-law status. The LSA admission program requires completion of an articling term (usually a 12-month period) and successful completion of Centre for Professional Legal Education course (CPLED). If you have completed a term of clerkship with the courts, your articling term may be reduced to a five-month requirement.

Unauthorized Practice Of Law:

http://www.lawsocietyalberta.com/law...dpractice2.cfm

Only licensed, insured lawyers can practise law in Canada. These lawyers are members of the Law Society of Alberta, or another Canadian law society, and have met the education and professional requirements to practice law.

There are certain legal matters that non-lawyers can perform. Sometimes non-lawyers are called legal assistants or paralegals, whose work is supervised by a lawyer. The lawyer is ultimately responsible and accountable for the work performed.

There are certain legal matters that can be performed, unsupervised, by a non-lawyer. These matters, and limits, are clearly outlined in the Legal Profession Act s.106 and 107.

If a non-lawyer performs the role of a lawyer, which violates the Legal Profession Act s. 106 and 107, the LSA may take action, since the non-lawyer is neither insured nor licensed to practice law, and the public may not be receiving the competent advice a licensed lawyer can provide. Practising law without a licence or insurance is called unauthorized practice of law.

[pria(kin)16]

Originally Posted by @theCBE

I am currently undergoing the NCA process, writing my first 3 exams in Jan. I didn't go to law school in the US though so I'm not sure how writing the bar will impact your application but it definately can't hurt. There is a place on the application form that specifically asks whether you have been admitted to the bar and what practical legal experience you have had. If you are planning on applying for a summer internship at a canadian law firm you would probably want to do that ASAP because i'm pretty sure most of the deadlines for the summer of 09 are in November. At least at the big law firms.

Besides that all I can tell you is to get your application in as early as you can. NCA takes at least 3 months to evaluate an application.

What country did you study in? How many exams are they making you write? I don't plan on being in Canada this summer because realistically no one will hire an American 2L because I wont be able to article starting next summer.

[onetwo_threefour]

Just to add, to what troutman said about different states. In addition to California, New York is also considered to have an extremely difficult bar exam.

The way I understand it (and explain it to people) is that, with so many private law schools in the US it is relatively easier to gain admission to school and get a degree there, so they weed people out based on the difficulty of the bar exam. In Canada, it is so much harder to get into law school because we have more limited educational opportunities, that there isn't a need to limit how many graduates actually start practicing law, so the bar ads are a cakewalk. That is why it is difficult to go to a US school and start practicing in Canada. Our law sociieties don't 'trust' the level of instruction in the US. I've got a buddy who took a correspondence law school course in the U.S. and can go challenge the bar in any US state he pleases, but basically would have to do an entire three year LLB up here still to practice here. Even with great marks in his degree he is not guaranteed admission at any Canadian schools. During the same period of time I went to school here, got my degree, did my articles and have been practicing since 2002. And yet, if I had to assess our relative strengths, I would take him in court over me in most cases. I think I am better at research and drafting, but this guy could litigate circles around me but can't legally practice here. (Luckily, I'm not really a litigator, so I play to my strengths)

It's funny how the system works sometimes.

[@theCBE]

Originally Posted by pria(kin)16

What country did you study in? How many exams are they making you write? I don't plan on being in Canada this summer because realistically no one will hire an American 2L because I wont be able to article starting next summer.

Scotland. I have to do 9 exams.. which seems pretty standard from most of the people that I have talked to who are coming back to Canada right after graduating, most of them do between 8-10 exams. You have to do far less if you have been called to the bar and practiced for a few years.

Its a pain in the ass for sure, but like you said the more daunting task is securing an articling position.

[pria(kin)16]

Originally Posted by onetwo_threefour

with so many private law schools in the US it is relatively easier to gain admission to school and get a degree there, so they weed people out based on the difficulty of the bar exam. In Canada, it is so much harder to get into law school because we have more limited educational opportunities, that there isn't a need to limit how many graduates actually start practicing law, so the bar ads are a cakewalk. That is why it is difficult to go to a US school and start practicing in Canada. Our law sociieties don't 'trust' the level of instruction in the US.

I go to one of these private law schools and to know that the NCA is going to give me a tough time is pretty discouraging. I work just as hard (if not harder) than my friends in Canadian schools so for them to doubt the instruction is pretty crappy. Our school (under ABA regulations) has mandatory attendance policy and a pretty harsh curve. We fared better on the bar than Florida and Miami this summer so for them to potentially dismiss my legal education is frustrating to no end. I'm doing everything I can (Researched for an article this summer, Crim Law Ta, Legal Aid, SBA Legislator (Student Bar Association)) to ensure the NCA realizes my commitment to practice in Canada but I'm still worried.

To get into Canadian law school was a pipe dream for me. My parents split right before I started 2nd year so school became a pretty low priority for me. When it came time to apply for law school it was difficult to communicate why my cumulative GPA wasn't where it was supposed to be. I was hoping my 162 LSAT and good grades in 3rd and 4th year would help me, but to no avail. I was only 22 when I applied to schools and I realize they are generally looking for more mature students, but no use crying over spilled milk. In general I'm just frustrated and disillusioned with the Canadian legal system and my path to practice. Again, sorry to vent, just want to see what some other lawyers/students think.

[pria(kin)16]

Originally Posted by @theCBE

Its a pain in the ass for sure, but like you said the more daunting task is securing an articling position.

Have you spoke with NCA students who have found articling positions? Do you have any prospects? It just seems like the positions are so competitive, that coming from a non-Canadian school puts you in an even worse position.

[@theCBE]

I do know a couple that have landed articling positions at some of the most competitive firms (biggest ones) but they didn't go through the normal process as most of those firms choose articling students from their previous summer students. Others have had luck at smaller firms that only hire one or two students a year and are therefore a bit more flexible and open minded with their selection criteria. Calgary seems to be a good place to be though as they do have a huge number of law firms.

I also heard from someone who applied to the NCA recently that she received an email back from them saying her application would be delayed because they have received triple the number of applications from foreign trained lawyers that they normally do.

[pria(kin)16]

Originally Posted by @theCBE

I also heard from someone who applied to the NCA recently that she received an email back from them saying her application would be delayed because they have received triple the number of applications from foreign trained lawyers that they normally do.

Exactly the type of news that I don't need to hear. Do you know where she went to school? Supposedly American students have it the easiest because its a 3 year degree/the curriculum isn't that different. Was your degree 2 or 3 years?

[OilersBaby]

There are several states that have reciprocity agreements with Washington DC. My husband and several of his friends took the California Bar since they went to law school here in 2000. They passed. One of them decided to move to Portland this past year but instead of taking the Oregon Bar, he took the Washington DC Bar exam...its awesome cuz then youc an move around somewaht.

That doesnt answer your question about the Alberta bar...but if you have any questions about American bar exams, I can find out very easily from my husband. He works as a Prosecutor at the District Attorney's office, prosecuting general felonies.

[@theCBE]

Originally Posted by pria(kin)16

Exactly the type of news that I don't need to hear. Do you know where she went to school? Supposedly American students have it the easiest because its a 3 year degree/the curriculum isn't that different. Was your degree 2 or 3 years?

Mine was 2 years but hers was 3. She went to school somewhere in the UK but I'm not sure where.

The NCA system is a joke though.. honestly the number of exams you have to write and the subjects you have to write is pretty random. I'm pretty sure they figure it out on a dart board.

I know two people who graduated from the same school, graduated the same year, took identical courses and finished with almost the same marks (within a couple of % of each other) and they were assigned different exams to complete (5 out of the 8 were the same).

There is an NCA facebook group if you are interested.

Also this is a good read.. specifically applies to US graduates.

http://www.raisingthebar.ca/RaisingTheBar.pdf

[OilersBaby]

Originally Posted by Rathji

I know this is off-topic but I know nothing about what it takes to be a lawyer. I have always been interested though. You go to school and then you need to pass the bar and then you can practice law in a certian area.

So my question is this: What if you don't go to school, but can pass the bar? Can you still practice law? If not, then what does the bar exam do that makes it so important to pass before you can practice law?

In California you dont have to have the law degree...you can take a course called Barbury that is weeks long to help, but if you dont know the material you wouldve learned in school it would have been hard.

But here its really easy to get into some law schools, even if they're nto as good, as long as you pass the bar its all good.

[onetwo_threefour]

Originally Posted by pria(kin)16

I go to one of these private law schools and to know that the NCA is going to give me a tough time is pretty discouraging. I work just as hard (if not harder) than my friends in Canadian schools so for them to doubt the instruction is pretty crappy. Our school (under ABA regulations) has mandatory attendance policy and a pretty harsh curve. We fared better on the bar than Florida and Miami this summer so for them to potentially dismiss my legal education is frustrating to no end. I'm doing everything I can (Researched for an article this summer, Crim Law Ta, Legal Aid, SBA Legislator (Student Bar Association)) to ensure the NCA realizes my commitment to practice in Canada but I'm still worried.

To get into Canadian law school was a pipe dream for me. My parents split right before I started 2nd year so school became a pretty low priority for me. When it came time to apply for law school it was difficult to communicate why my cumulative GPA wasn't where it was supposed to be. I was hoping my 162 LSAT and good grades in 3rd and 4th year would help me, but to no avail. I was only 22 when I applied to schools and I realize they are generally looking for more mature students, but no use crying over spilled milk. In general I'm just frustrated and disillusioned with the Canadian legal system and my path to practice. Again, sorry to vent, just want to see what some other lawyers/students think.

I'm not going to claim to be anything special here. I was in the 96th percentile on the LSAT with about 3.65 GPA (still had a class or two from my first disastrous attempt at Engineering on my transcript or it would have been 3.8) and still got waitlisted to get into Uof C Law. I only applied at one school because my wife was finishing up at SAIT that year, and luckily I got in off the waitlist. I was pretty lucky, although I originally thought I would be a slam-dunk, I didn't have any real experience, or community service stuff to help my application.

My view of the transfer system is largely based on my buddy's experience and may not reflect your own experience. I also think that the steps you have taken to show your intentions may be a difference maker. One of my buddy's problems was that he fully intended to move down to California after completing his JD and writing the state bar but his wife ultimately nixed that plan for various reasons. His experience may have been worse then because he had not really conducted himself with the intention of trying to get the maximum transferability from his education. I do think that graduates from the more highly regarded and nationally accredited schools in the US would have less difficulty with transferring. It's more a case that, overall, I think they'll look a bit harder at your education than they would for a Canadian law school.

(By the way, don't work too hard, it may be counterproductive. For my first two years of law school, I hammered the books and worked my ass off to get a B average. Then in my third year, my wife had a baby during fall mid-terms and I was working full-time hours and let school go a little and ended up with an A- average that year.)