LRT fight finally over

[McMack]

The line, which the city hopes to have completed by 2012, now comes out of downtown elevated along 10th Avenue; runs up the middle of Bow Trail between 19th and 31st Streets; jogs down 33rd Street, going underground below Westbrook Mall; comes to street level around 41st Street and runs out to 69th Street.

http://www.canada.com/calgaryherald/...0-45261c16eaea

[McMack]

WTH, Joe?

Ald. Joe Connelly proposed three amendments during the debate, which began Monday evening and lasted more than three hours.
He asked council to divert $94 million from the city's rainy day fund to pay for burying the tracks at 45th Street and 17th Avenue, so emergency vehicles from fire, paramedic and police stations there don't have to manoeuvre around the tracks.
"The bottom line is the public wants it buried, I want it buried, my community presidents want it buried," he said earlier on Monday. "Even their own report that came from the engineering firm that was developed in October 2007, even in there it's very clear, it's very clear it should be buried based on that."

To save on costs, he also suggested shortening the route to stop just west of Sarcee Trail.

http://news.aol.ca/article/westlrt-final/254068/

[Fuzzy McGillicuddy]

This is just another in a long list of poorly designed transportation projects in Calgary. In 25 years, people will be wondering what the hell council members were thinking when they allowed the tracks to run at grade (street level) across 45th Street.

[Resolute 14]

No kidding. If you are underground at 41st, at least go the extra 500m past 45th...

[Bobblehead]

On the news last week, Bronco was threatening to delay that leg, and he said something to the effect that when the C-train was first being built, complaints about the NW leg caused them to delay that and go ahead with eh NE leg instead.

Today, I look at those and think that the NW leg seems pretty well laid out with a minimum of traffic interruptions. The NE leg running up 36th is nasty; the lights can't be timed because of the trains, and weekends are the worst because all the traffic attempting to turn into any of the malls (Sunridge, Marlborough, Pacific Place, or the Home Depot). At lead during rush our it is people getting out of those areas, which doesn't cause the backups on the street itself.

So in retrospect, perhaps it may be better to hold of an extra few months and get the funds to do the project right instead of ramroding it through and paying for the short sightedness for decades to come.

[mykalberta]

They should cancel the west leg and use that money to put the downtown portion underground.

[ken0042]

Originally Posted by Bobblehead

So in retrospect, perhaps it may be better to hold of an extra few months and get the funds to do the project right instead of ramroding it through and paying for the short sightedness for decades to come.

The only difference here is the most recent delays have meant now it will be a traffic issue (middle of Bow Trail like 36th street) instead of how it was originally planned.

But I do agree that the train should never have to cross a 4 lane road (on the same plane); nor should it have traffic lights tied to it. Not sure what the best solution is, but it appears the vocal residents have said they would rather have traffic headaches than buy curtains.

[Red]

They should extend it to Springbank. There's a lot more people that can't wait to trade their BMWs and Lincolns for a C-Train. Just like the ones in Signal Hill/Cougar Ridge etc that they are trying to reach now.

/sarcasm

[Thunderball]

Originally Posted by mykalberta

They should cancel the west leg and use that money to put the downtown portion underground.

I agree. That, and expand all the stations to at least 4 cars and get more going. I hate how this city tries to force everyone to use transit, and does nothing to boost capacity, comfort and convenience. They expand like crazy, and do nothing for capacity. That's probably part of why those London condos are failing... what's the point of being next to an LRT station when the damn thing is packed by the time it reaches Heritage Station?

[peter12]

I've heard rumours of bureaucratic corruption surrounding the decision to elevate the train on 10th Ave. I certainly wouldn't have any problems with council taking a second look at the plans.

[llama64]

This is the same city that thought it was a cool idea to put a traffic light on Bow Trail for a pedestrian crossing. Because it's "cheaper" then an overpass.

Not surprised at the plan. Calgary still can't grasp the concepts of higher density planning.

[FLAMESRULE]

What an absolute bunch of morons. Bow Trail is going to be an absolute gong show. Thank god I dont live up there anymore.

I hate pandering to the minority and it never freaking ends. Some people will always disagree with a plan. We now have 50,000 people (or whatever it is) that use Bow Trail now have to deal with a C-Train because people dont want curtains or to spend a little now to save ALOT in the future just shows the stupidity and ignorance of the bureaucracy/politicians in this city.

I agree with mykalberta, at least that will benefit everyone by running the C-train under ground downtown.

[Draug]

Originally Posted by Fuzzy McGillicuddy

This is just another in a long list of poorly designed transportation projects in Calgary. In 25 years, people will be wondering what the hell council members were thinking when they allowed the tracks to run at grade (street level) across 45th Street.

25 years from now? I already shake my head at the grade level routes that exist now.

I just got back from NY, and was in London last spring. Coming from two REAL transit systems makes you laugh out loud at our pathetic excuse for Public Transit. It is awful.

In NY and London, you can actually use the system to get from any point A to any point B. It actually makes the system usable. Adding to the incompetence of our ground level system, is the fact that it only reaches a few locations in the city.

Until our system is actually useful, I'll have to keep driving... I've seen nothing to show it will be better in the next decade.

[FiftyBelow]

Originally Posted by Draug

25 years from now? I already shake my head at the grade level routes that exist now.

I just got back from NY, and was in London last spring. Coming from two REAL transit systems makes you laugh out loud at our pathetic excuse for Public Transit. It is awful.

In NY and London, you can actually use the system to get from any point A to any point B. It actually makes the system usable. Adding to the incompetence of our ground level system, is the fact that it only reaches a few locations in the city.

Until our system is actually useful, I'll have to keep driving... I've seen nothing to show it will be better in the next decade.

I definitely agree with this statement. I just got back from Athens and I have to say its the best Metro I've seen in Europe. Everything is clean, well maintained, trains are fast and frequent. Its obvious the Olympics had a lot to do with this. I expected some run-down system, but all it did was completely overshadow the C-train in all aspects.

[Got Miikka?]

Hey, look at it this way: at least the new leg will be CONSISTENT in its crappiness versus the rest of the C-Train lines.

[mykalberta]

Originally Posted by Draug

25 years from now? I already shake my head at the grade level routes that exist now.

I just got back from NY, and was in London last spring. Coming from two REAL transit systems makes you laugh out loud at our pathetic excuse for Public Transit. It is awful.

In NY and London, you can actually use the system to get from any point A to any point B. It actually makes the system usable. Adding to the incompetence of our ground level system, is the fact that it only reaches a few locations in the city.

Until our system is actually useful, I'll have to keep driving... I've seen nothing to show it will be better in the next decade.

You cant really compare the livign densities of London and New York and expect Calgary to spend that kind of money do you. Find a city of 1 million and do a true comparison. Calgary has one of the best public transit systems for a city its size IMO.

[Claeren]

Originally Posted by Draug

25 years from now? I already shake my head at the grade level routes that exist now.

I just got back from NY, and was in London last spring. Coming from two REAL transit systems makes you laugh out loud at our pathetic excuse for Public Transit. It is awful.

In NY and London, you can actually use the system to get from any point A to any point B. It actually makes the system usable. Adding to the incompetence of our ground level system, is the fact that it only reaches a few locations in the city.

Until our system is actually useful, I'll have to keep driving... I've seen nothing to show it will be better in the next decade.

hahahaha

Seriously?

Because Calgary is sooo similar in WHICH way to London and NYC?


Over a BILLION (almost 2 Billion for NYC actually) use their subways each year! Not total transit - just subway!

Average weekday ridership for the LRT (the highest light rail ridership in North America) was ~271,000. For the NYC subway? ~6,500,000. A mere difference of 24 times!


That is without even looking at the densities and design and usage patterns in those respective cities.


Perhaps most interesting though is that despite being such heavily used and famous and established and historic ~100 year old systems, London's Tube is ~55% above ground and the NYC metro is ~40% above ground.




I would like to see certain changs in LRT priorities (capacity expansion over route expansion) as well, but to compare us to NYC or London does not help anyone.

Very specific cost/benefit advantages were gained in going above ground where we did, and i think some here may be underestimating the cost difference between above and below ground options.

Regardless, here is a similar rant of mine from not too long ago:

"The bigger issue though is that property taxes are basically the only way the city has, outside of user fees, to raise money. So it should be the province that people are going after to make LRT a big big priority.

Especially now with the core of the provincial conservatives being either farmers or wealthy (non-LRT taking) Calgarians, it really may not be on their radar like it should.


What is funny is that i look at transit as a relatively conservative measure in the future (despite its liberal minded roots). It is one of the most efficient ways there is dollar for dollar to cut emissions, reduce gridlock, maximize transportation spending, enable the poor to get to work on their own ('hand up' not a 'hand out'), allow consumer choice relative to the car/gas and increases porperty values (which in turn should indicate just how valuable it is to people).



The one good thing Calgary did was getting the LRT as built-out as they have with as few dollars allocated by the province as they had. A tunnel up-front would have hamstrung the entire system for its first 20 years, and only now would we be getting out to Brentwood or Anderson (if even that far?). I think everyone would have loved a tunnel but it is just not that simple.

That being said, it is sad that 'route EXTENSIONS' have been confused with 'capacity EXPANSIONS' the last decade. Extending to Crowfoot and Rocky Ridge (the same applies on all routes) has done nothing to address the actual capacity of the line. In fact it actually spreads cars out over more line which would reduce the capacity in any given peak hour. All for what? To help people in Cochrane or Okotoks (who don't pay city taxes) get to work more easily? A few city commuters save 2 kms in their commute, going to Crowfoot instead of Dalhousie or Brentwood which are still before the true downtown bottlenecks?

Stations need 4 (and really 5) car trains and more cars (they have started receiving some) more than they need extensions - and those should be affordable (but less politically flashy) options! And then they need new roots to out beyond the inner-city bottlenecks before they need FAR suburban extensions. Then a tunnel, and only then does it make sense to have all these politically flashy suburban extensions.

Of course I am stuck acknowledging that the NW extentions, for example, have as much to do with piggy-backing on the road expansion of Crowchild as they do a political desire for LRT transit. But it is still frustrating to see the ring road (which is still awesome, but not nearly as important comparatively in my mind) getting so much provincial attention while hundreds of thousands of trips PER DAY on LRT are looked at as some sort of accident!

I wonder what ring road traffic numbers will look like compared to any of the LRT line's traffic numbers?"




Claeren.

[Draug]

Originally Posted by mykalberta

You cant really compare the livign densities of London and New York and expect Calgary to spend that kind of money do you. Find a city of 1 million and do a true comparison. Calgary has one of the best public transit systems for a city its size IMO.

Except that you can make some of the comparison... the start of our system is way worse than theirs started. The first line in NYC was built in 1913, and is more effective than our current lines.

Granted, I dont know how much the first line in NYC has been upgraded, but it didnt seem to be touched in many many years.

Perhaps, our system is better than any other city of 1 million people; I dont know. What I do know is that it doesnt provide a better solution than driving, right now. Until it does, what good is it?

[Draug]

Originally Posted by Claeren

hahahaha

Seriously?

Because Calgary is sooo similar in WHICH way to London and NYC?

I would like to see certain changs in LRT priorities (capacity expansion over route expansion) as well, but to compare us to NYC or London does not help anyone.

That being said, it is sad that 'route EXTENSIONS' have been confused with 'capacity EXPANSIONS' the last decade.

Claeren.

It isnt that I am making a direct comparison. I am saying that our transit system doesn help enough people get where they are going. The vast majority of people here need to drive to a station first. And then, when you get there, you cant get on a train anyway because they have no capacity and dont run often enough. All to find when you finally get back to your car that it has been broken into.

Of course it should be underground in the entire downtown core; I am sure we all agree on that.

The bottom line for me is that transit riding is encouraged, even to the point that the city purposely makes driving worse and worse. They prevent the building of adequate parking in the core in numerous ways, and have a restriction on new roads being built into the core. You cant simply make an inadequate transit system 'better' by making driving worse.

If they want public tranportation to be used by the majority, they need to make it better. At least show some signs of improving, but I dont see them.

[Rhettzky]

Originally Posted by Draug

Except that you can make some of the comparison... the start of our system is way worse than theirs started. The first line in NY was built in 1913, and is more effective than our current lines.

How can you compare a city like NY to Calgary in terms of rapid transit? Calgary's sprawl is ridiculous compared to NY's. We're over 1 million people spread over 726.5 km² (280.5 sq mi) and NY is 8.2 million people over 789.43 km² (304.8 sq mi). As for your last line, WTF?