Medico-ethical dilemna.. forced chemo on a 12 yr old - Calgarypuck Forums - The Unofficial Calgary Flames Fan Community

Knut · 05-13-2008, 08:28 AM

What would you do if you were the parents??

http://www.cbc.ca/canada/toronto/sto...cas-chemo.html

Do you respect the decision of an 11 yr old???

or

Do you trust in the doctors??

What do you think of the decision to take the child and force treatment?

Tough choice, I hope i never have to make a decision like this.

ken0042 · 05-13-2008, 08:48 AM

The parents are on the side of their kid.

I know it's hard because he's so young, but if you've gone through 4 years of treatment with no sign of ever getting better, at what point do you decide you no longer wish to fight it?

dissentowner · 05-13-2008, 09:00 AM

This is a total violation of human rights, plain and simple!

Azure · 05-13-2008, 09:21 AM

Usually when you go through chemo you end up losing your hair, having mouth sores along with skin rashes, and you're unable to walk.

That is what chemo is all about.....killing you day by day, and each day bringing you back to life again.

Are there other alternatives? 2nd, 3rd and 4th opinions are always good, but eventually you are going to 'need' chemo if there are no other alternatives.

Unless the parents want the child to die, well then by all means give him pain-killers so that he doesn't suffer and let him die.

Any 11 year old kid will have a problem going through that kind of therapy....the pain is beyond description. Obviously the kid isn't going to want to do it again.

Knut · 05-13-2008, 09:27 AM

I wouldnt go so far as to say that it is a "violation of human rights" , but it should be the family's decision.

How bad will the family feel though if the treatment works and the kid has a full recovery ??

The Hippocratic Oath can be taken too far, but you have to trust the doctors feel a recovery is possible.

CaptainCrunch · 05-13-2008, 09:30 AM

Is a 12 year old really mature enough to make a life or death decision like this. Does he even understand the ramifications beyond the physical pain, or is that the key point in his decision?

I doubt that this treatment would be forced on him if they were just going through the motions and he was going to die anyways.

This goes far beyond a human rights debate and leads right into the right to die debate.

MarchHare · 05-13-2008, 09:38 AM

Quote:

"This kid knows better than anyone else how this is affecting his life, so who is a doctor or a judge to say that this is really in his best interests?"

Yeah, obviously an 11-year old special education child with fetal alcohol syndrome is in a better position to make a life or death decision than a doctor who is merely a medical school graduate and has years of experience treating cancer patients. Obviously.

I agree fully with the judge who ruled in this case; the kid clearly doesn't have the mental capacity to make a properly informed decision, and the parents are not acting in the best interest of the child. It's not a certainty that chemo treatments will save his life, but it is a certainty that forgoing them will result in his death.

FireFly · 05-13-2008, 09:51 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by MarchHare

Yeah, obviously an 11-year old special education child with fetal alcohol syndrome is in a better position to make a life or death decision than a doctor who is merely a medical school graduate and has years of experience treating cancer patients. Obviously.

I agree fully with the judge who ruled in this case; the kid clearly doesn't have the mental capacity to make a properly informed decision, and the parents are not acting in the best interest of the child. It's not a certainty that chemo treatments will save his life, but it is a certainty that forgoing them will result in his death.

But it's not just the child, his parents agreed.

I think perhaps that's the most unfortunate part... if the parents would rather let him live 6 months than continue to have hope for a full recovery. However, I don't think you can force anyone to accept treatment if they don't want it. If that person is a child, then I would suggest their parents be the ones to make the final decision, however since the parents in this case sided with their child, who are the doctors to force it on him? And why would that even be an option?

Gozer · 05-13-2008, 09:57 AM

Forcing this upon the child is wrong.

CaptainCrunch · 05-13-2008, 09:57 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by FireFly

But it's not just the child, his parents agreed.

I think perhaps that's the most unfortunate part... if the parents would rather let him live 6 months than continue to have hope for a full recovery. However, I don't think you can force anyone to accept treatment if they don't want it. If that person is a child, then I would suggest their parents be the ones to make the final decision, however since the parents in this case sided with their child, who are the doctors to force it on him? And why would that even be an option?

Its interesting, but the state will only really step in if they think that the parents are making a bad decision based on the information that they have been given.

If the doctor thinks that theres a better then average chance of this kid getting better, or theres any chance at all and their meeting resistance from the parents, of course they're going to report it.

The other factor, I think is that its really not up to the parents on whether they're going to in theory pull the plug on their kid, and in this case the kid isn't in the best position to make a judgement especially with the other factors in his life (FAS, special needs). So if the kid is making the decision based on the fact that chemo is unpleasant, which it is. Then this has more to do with quality of life decisions, then life or death decisions.

troutman · 05-13-2008, 10:00 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by FireFly

But it's not just the child, his parents agreed.

I think perhaps that's the most unfortunate part... if the parents would rather let him live 6 months than continue to have hope for a full recovery. However, I don't think you can force anyone to accept treatment if they don't want it. If that person is a child, then I would suggest their parents be the ones to make the final decision, however since the parents in this case sided with their child, who are the doctors to force it on him? And why would that even be an option?

"The best interests of children" over-rides everything.

http://www.rightsofchildren.ca/pdf/Background2.pdf

http://www.unhchr.ch/html/menu3/b/k2crc.htm

Article 3

1. In all actions concerning children, whether undertaken by public or private social welfare institutions, courts of law, administrative authorities or legislative bodies, the best interests of the child shall be a primary consideration.

2. States Parties undertake to ensure the child such protection and care as is necessary for his or her well-being, taking into account the rights and duties of his or her parents, legal guardians, or other individuals legally responsible for him or her, and, to this end, shall take all appropriate legislative and administrative measures.
3. States Parties shall ensure that the institutions, services and facilities responsible for the care or protection of children shall conform with the standards established by competent authorities, particularly in the areas of safety, health, in the number and suitability of their staff, as well as competent supervision.

J pold · 05-13-2008, 10:05 AM

My step brother went through a similar experience with cancer, he was diagnosed when he was 11 and was given a 40% chance to live. He went through extensive kemo treatments with the similar symptoms (loss of hair, mouth sores, couldn’t walk) and for along time the kemo seemed to do nothing at all.

But I don’t think the idea of stopping the treatments ever crossed his mind. He knew he had to go through some of the worse pain imaginable but for him it wasn’t about the pain it was about a chance to live, to get better so he clung to it and with time recovered. He now leads a very normal life and has for many years.

Jason14h · 05-13-2008, 10:11 AM

Get House on the case, he would just guilt them into having the treatment!

In seriousness though, I agree with the Judge 100%. An 11 year old special ed child is not remotely the most informed. The parents should be ashamed to let their child die instead of giving him every chance to live

driveway · 05-13-2008, 10:37 AM

I'm on the kid's side on this one. If he wants to die, he should be allowed to die. Whether or not it's an 'informed decision' or not, or whether he is special ed, or has FAS or anything shouldn't enter into the discussion. He's a human, he doesn't want to treat his cancer, that should be the end of the story right there.

Azure · 05-13-2008, 10:46 AM

Does an 11 year old even know what death means?

Machiavelli · 05-13-2008, 10:50 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Azure

Does an 11 year old even know what death means?

Yes.

llama64 · 05-13-2008, 10:53 AM

He's 11. The parents have the call here and no one else. If they decide that the kid gets no more chemo, that's the end of it. Why is this even in court?

Anyone who claims negligence should knock themselves over the head with a brick. They are looking out for their son in the best way for them. Chemo didn't work the first time, so they want an alternative. Seems perfectly reasonable to me.

Azure · 05-13-2008, 10:58 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Machiavelli

Yes.

I disagree.

He might 'know' what death means as a dictionary term, but I seriously doubt that he understands the pain and loss associated with it.

llama64 · 05-13-2008, 11:02 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Azure

I disagree.

He might 'know' what death means as a dictionary term, but I seriously doubt that he understands the pain and loss associated with it.

To be fair, I think it would be very hard to gauge this in general.

Most 11year olds havn't reached the maturity to properly comprehend human relations and the effects actions can have on them. But there are exceptions to the rule. No one here knows this kid, so I don't think it's possible for anyone to argue yes or no.

photon · 05-13-2008, 11:02 AM

What alternative? A second doctor's opinion? Or some shark urine chakra realignment magical promise?

This is a really tough situation, but I think I agree with the judge's position. If I was the parent I don't think I'd agree with discontinuing treatment.

I don't think the kid should have the final decision though, if he's not old enough to vote or drive...