Hillier resigns

[CaptainCrunch]

Just thought that I would throw this up here. Rick Hillier possibly one of the best Chief of Defense in Canada's military history resigns today after what he says was a successful time running the Canadian Forces. General Hillier bought a lot of pride back to a Military that had been battered and destroyed by previous administrations until Paul Martin and then Stephen Harper started investing in it.

Hopefully the next CODS will continue to improve moral and situations for our men and woman in uniform.

Also a very funny statement

http://www.canada.com/topics/news/st...3-9166d4ac22be

Hllier insisted he has no political ambitions.
"I have no idea what I'll do, but I'm sure I'll work for another 10, 15 years," Hillier said. "I don't want to sit on the couch scratching my belly in my underwear watching the soaps."

[Svartsengi]

Any thoughts on who the next CDS will be?.

[CaptainCrunch]

The logical choice would be the vice chief of defense staff. Lt General Natynczyk would be the logical choice. However logic dictates that they'll take someone from another arm of the service.

With the need to continue the work that Hillier started by the need to get more naval funding due to the half life upgrades needed by the Halifax frigates and the need for new command and control ships and naval positioning ships, I would think that the Chief of Maritime Staff, Vice Admiral Robertson will be the logical choice.

The other strong Candidate would be Major General Watt who's the Chief of Air Staff because of the need to replace the F-18's hopefully with the JSF.

Its interesting because everything screams that they should replace Hillier with a Francophone to placate Quebec and get them onboard, but a search through the Canadian Forces Command Structure shows that there are no francophones in the senior command structure.

[Svartsengi]

How much does a Joint Strike Fighter cost?. IIRC Lockead Martin is having some problems with it. Can't remember where I heard this. Could have been from one of the U.S. military forums I lurk on.

Hopefully the government does a better job than that submarine fiasco. Buying those old British Subs was silly. Do you know whatever became of those four subs?. Last I heard they were all out of service. Problems with the electrical system, fuel system ........ On those same U.S. forums they were talking about diesel electric subs a while back. Sweden makes great ones and so does Germany and France from what I remember the U.S. Navy vets and active duty members saying. Would have cost us a lot less too.

I could provide you with links if you want them. One was started by Col. David Hackworth some years back.

[kermitology]

At first glance it looks like "Hitler resigns"

Which reminds me of a book on my dad's bookshelf called Hillier's Guide to Trees and Shrubs which my friend read as Hitler's as well.. MEIN SHRUB!

Definitely agree with your assessment of Hillier though.

[CaptainCrunch]

Interesting post.

I'll address each part.

The JSF which is being built for the Marines, the Navy and the Brits is still under development, the problem is with its weight its too heavy and can't live up to its specs, based on that Lockheed Martin has had to go back to the drawing board to make it lighter, thats cost an extra 50 billion give or take. Its unlikely that the program will be canceled now as its in the terminal stages of development and its still the best plane for the Canadian Forces mission specs. In terms of individual plane costs. Canada is looking at buying 80 of them to replace the F-18 at a cost of $3.8 billion which is $47.5 million per plane if my math is right, which is pretty reasonable for a next generation all weather multimission strike fighter. That cost may increase slightly though.

When Canada purchased the Upholder subs and renamed them the Victoria class submarine, they were considered to be an incredible leap forward in diesel electric sub implementation. for one thing the hull shape was revolutionary as it utilized the same kind of shape as the British Trafalger nuc boat giving it equivalent maneuvering and good speed capabilities. In terms of sonar and weapons systems the Upholder was considered to be excellent. Unfortunatley due to Canada's signature on the non proliferation treaty, the smart purchase of Nuclear Submarines was not allowed (a diesel boat is hampered by its need for fuel and battery recharges near the surface which does not help in terms of arctic duty)

In terms of age, the Upholders aren't old, the ones that Canada bought had their keels laid down between 1990-93.

I like the German and Dutch boats which work with an Oxygen Independant system, however they are good coastal patrol subs, and are not suited to NATO's need for Submarines with mid ocean long deployment capabilities.

In terms of costs, Canada originally did get a stellar deal paying $244 million for 4 boats at a cost of about $58 million each, where the problem comes in to play is that the boats had been in storage as the brits decided to strictly follow a nuc boat strategy, and the Upholders deteriorated, and Canada's sign off was premature as there were some significant down check issues on the boat.

From what I understand, two of the boats have been deployed, with a third rejoining the fleet next year. The Chicoutimi which had the tragic fire is still in dry dock. However the incident is not all of the subs fault, as after the sub surfaced due to a fire, the Captain decided to run on the surface during a storm with the hatches open to vent the smoke out, the high swells allowed salt water to flood the electrical compartment causing an even worse situation.

Over the past few years the Canadian Forces has worked almost exclusively to upgrade its land component with new communications systems, the purchase of new helicopters and heavy lift capable planes, the expected upgrading of the Leopard tanks the replacement of the terrible Iltis jeeps with the new Mercedes. The cancellation of the terrible MGS. The purchase of UAVs While the ground forces component is no where complete, they're a generation ahead of where they were 5 years ago.

In my mind the next steps for the Canadian Forces are

1) The half life refits of the Halifax Frigates with upgraded weapons and sensor systems

2) The purchase of heavy lift capable Ships capable of carrying troops, helicopters and supplies anywhere in the world.

3) The increase in size of our tactical helicopter squad, hopefully they replace the Griffins with something faster that can lift more troops and be armed for battlefield support (BlackHawks would be nice or the Osphrey VTOL aircraft would be better)

4) The finalization of the purchase of maritime anti-submarine helicopters to replace the Sea Kings.

5) The retirement of the CF-18 fleet and the transition to the JSF

6) The purchase of at least two maritime Command Vessels to coordinate with the Halifax Frigates. The Arleigh Burke Class Destroyers would be perfect for the role with some communications refitting.

Just my thoughts

[CaptainCrunch]

Originally Posted by kermitology

At first glance it looks like "Hitler resigns"

Which reminds me of a book on my dad's bookshelf called Hillier's Guide to Trees and Shrubs which my friend read as Hitler's as well.. MEIN SHRUB!

Definitely agree with your assessment of Hillier though.

Thanks Kermit, I doused my monitor with hot coffee at the thought of some moron in jackboots standing in front of the pathetic Christmas tree from Merry Christmas Charlie Brown throwing out Hitler Salutes.

[Azure]

Unfortunatley due to Canada's signature on the non proliferation treaty, the smart purchase of Nuclear Submarines was not allowed (a diesel boat is hampered by its need for fuel and battery recharges near the surface which does not help in terms of arctic duty)

So remove that signature?

Seriously, its not like we'll be employing nuclear weapons.

Just embracing new technology.

[CaptainCrunch]

Originally Posted by Azure

So remove that signature?

Seriously, its not like we'll be employing nuclear weapons.

Just embracing new technology.

I agree, but its unlikely that the government would ever remove their signature from that, it would be a public relations disastor in terms of the green folks.

The sad thing is that the American's have LA class flight 1 subs that are being retired from their line even though there's still another 50 years worth of time on the reactors. The first flight LA class subs I believe are missing VLT's and have to fire their cruise missiles through one of the forward tubes. Canada could upgrade the sonar systems themselves.

A nuclear submarine would be perfect for Artic and long range patrols.

[peter12]

Originally Posted by CaptainCrunch

Interesting post.

I'll address each part.

The JSF which is being built for the Marines, the Navy and the Brits is still under development, the problem is with its weight its too heavy and can't live up to its specs, based on that Lockheed Martin has had to go back to the drawing board to make it lighter, thats cost an extra 50 billion give or take. Its unlikely that the program will be canceled now as its in the terminal stages of development and its still the best plane for the Canadian Forces mission specs. In terms of individual plane costs. Canada is looking at buying 80 of them to replace the F-18 at a cost of $3.8 billion which is $47.5 million per plane if my math is right, which is pretty reasonable for a next generation all weather multimission strike fighter. That cost may increase slightly though.

When Canada purchased the Upholder subs and renamed them the Victoria class submarine, they were considered to be an incredible leap forward in diesel electric sub implementation. for one thing the hull shape was revolutionary as it utilized the same kind of shape as the British Trafalger nuc boat giving it equivalent maneuvering and good speed capabilities. In terms of sonar and weapons systems the Upholder was considered to be excellent. Unfortunatley due to Canada's signature on the non proliferation treaty, the smart purchase of Nuclear Submarines was not allowed (a diesel boat is hampered by its need for fuel and battery recharges near the surface which does not help in terms of arctic duty)

In terms of age, the Upholders aren't old, the ones that Canada bought had their keels laid down between 1990-93.

I like the German and Dutch boats which work with an Oxygen Independant system, however they are good coastal patrol subs, and are not suited to NATO's need for Submarines with mid ocean long deployment capabilities.

In terms of costs, Canada originally did get a stellar deal paying $244 million for 4 boats at a cost of about $58 million each, where the problem comes in to play is that the boats had been in storage as the brits decided to strictly follow a nuc boat strategy, and the Upholders deteriorated, and Canada's sign off was premature as there were some significant down check issues on the boat.

From what I understand, two of the boats have been deployed, with a third rejoining the fleet next year. The Chicoutimi which had the tragic fire is still in dry dock. However the incident is not all of the subs fault, as after the sub surfaced due to a fire, the Captain decided to run on the surface during a storm with the hatches open to vent the smoke out, the high swells allowed salt water to flood the electrical compartment causing an even worse situation.

Over the past few years the Canadian Forces has worked almost exclusively to upgrade its land component with new communications systems, the purchase of new helicopters and heavy lift capable planes, the expected upgrading of the Leopard tanks the replacement of the terrible Iltis jeeps with the new Mercedes. The cancellation of the terrible MGS. The purchase of UAVs While the ground forces component is no where complete, they're a generation ahead of where they were 5 years ago.

In my mind the next steps for the Canadian Forces are

1) The half life refits of the Halifax Frigates with upgraded weapons and sensor systems

2) The purchase of heavy lift capable Ships capable of carrying troops, helicopters and supplies anywhere in the world.

3) The increase in size of our tactical helicopter squad, hopefully they replace the Griffins with something faster that can lift more troops and be armed for battlefield support (BlackHawks would be nice or the Osphrey VTOL aircraft would be better)

4) The finalization of the purchase of maritime anti-submarine helicopters to replace the Sea Kings.

5) The retirement of the CF-18 fleet and the transition to the JSF

6) The purchase of at least two maritime Command Vessels to coordinate with the Halifax Frigates. The Arleigh Burke Class Destroyers would be perfect for the role with some communications refitting.

Just my thoughts

That's a fantastic post, Captain. Of your six recommendations, which do you think are the most likely to actually be acted upon? I know that the Iroquois-class destroyers are nearing the end of their effective lifespan and that their removal from the fleet will eliminate any effective anti-air capabilities of the Canadian Maritime Command. Will we replace them with an American make or will we make our own hulls?

As for the Blackhawk/Osprey replacement, is this at all likely? Are there discussions taking place to replace the Griffins?

It seems land forces have been substantially upgraded and it just remains to fill in the other Commands.

[CaptainCrunch]

Originally Posted by peter12

That's a fantastic post, Captain. Of your six recommendations, which do you think are the most likely to actually be acted upon? I know that the Iroquois-class destroyers are nearing the end of their effective lifespan and that their removal from the fleet will eliminate any effective anti-air capabilities of the Canadian Maritime Command. Will we replace them with an American make or will we make our own hulls?

I'd like to think that the next upgrades will be naval in nature, I know there's tremendous pressure on the Canadian Navy by the American Navy to get up to speed in terms of being able to work in multinational Nato formations.

My guess is that Canada would prefer to lay down their own hulls like we did with the Halifax, but building a Command and Control multirole destroyer is a far more complex and difficult job then building a frigate. As I mentioned above, the Canadian Navy would be smart to license the hull and weapons configuration of the Burke class Can and upgrade its ability to data link to the frigates for real time command.

I think we have one Iroquis left in service and it just can't keep up with the Halifax which in my mind is an excellent hull with a severe handicap in terms of the helicopters it carries.

In the short term the new Helicopters are still a few years away, but they almost have to be implemented first.

If Canada is to be successful in terms of international deployment we do have to have the ability to transport our own troops and equipment on our own schedules and our own costs, thats why I think the next major step should be the construction and deployment of maritime positioning ships which can carry a short brigade of troops plus equipment, supplies and transportation helicopters.

The construction and deployement of the Destroyers might take the least level of importance as our frigates can already data integrate with U.S. Navy command structures, but in terms of establishing our own naval standard in our own waters (something that Harper has harped on) we have to have two command and control destroyers in the next lets say 10 years. One other thing that just came to mind is that our replenishment ships for mid ocean resupply and refueling are also coming to the end of life and we should probably just buy 4 of those.

Originally Posted by peter12

As for the Blackhawk/Osprey replacement, is this at all likely? Are there discussions taking place to replace the Griffins?

The Griffins are ok helicopters for the role that they have if you can depend on other nations for heavy lift, and I know that the Air Force Command structure is increasingly unhappy with the failings of the Griffin in terms of troop transport ability, heavy lift capability, range and maintenance. I don't know how likely that the Blackhawk and Osprey are, but they seem to fit Canada's motto of one vehicle 10 jobs. The Blackhawk can lift heavy vehicles carry a lot of troops over long distance while staying in the ground effects, and it can be fitted with a lot of missiles for hot zone insertions, plus its got a lot of armor to it.

If Canada buys a sealift ship, then you could mix missions and combine Osprey's for ship to shore deployment and resupply and use the Blackhawks in shore.

Originally Posted by peter12

It seems land forces have been substantially upgraded and it just remains to fill in the other Commands.

The Landforces still have a way to go to catch up to Nato standards. While moral is good and front line combat equipment is better, there is still a ways to go. I think that our ground forces anti-air needs an upgrade, we also have a shortage in terms of self propelled artillary, and while the upgraded Leopard tanks are good, the gun technology is about a generation behine the larger gunned Leopard II's and M1A1, and the armour technology lags behind as well.

[Azure]

Originally Posted by CaptainCrunch

I agree, but its unlikely that the government would ever remove their signature from that, it would be a public relations disastor in terms of the green folks.

The sad thing is that the American's have LA class flight 1 subs that are being retired from their line even though there's still another 50 years worth of time on the reactors. The first flight LA class subs I believe are missing VLT's and have to fire their cruise missiles through one of the forward tubes. Canada could upgrade the sonar systems themselves.

A nuclear submarine would be perfect for Artic and long range patrols.

Yeah, I can't imagine how frustrating it is for the actual people in the military who KNOW the newer technology is there, but due to some stupid treaty, the military can't get their hands on it.

Eventually Canada is going to have to sign off that treaty....nuclear will be the way of the future down the road.

[peter12]

If Canada is to be successful in terms of international deployment we do have to have the ability to transport our own troops and equipment on our own schedules and our own costs, thats why I think the next major step should be the construction and deployment of maritime positioning ships which can carry a short brigade of troops plus equipment, supplies and transportation helicopters.

If we go ahead and purchase something along the lines of an Amphibian Assault Ship, like the US Wasp-class, don't we have to see a corresponding purchase of additional ASW helicopters, or even light attack aircraft, to complement their fast attack capabilities?

[CaptainCrunch]

Originally Posted by peter12

If Canada is to be successful in terms of international deployment we do have to have the ability to transport our own troops and equipment on our own schedules and our own costs, thats why I think the next major step should be the construction and deployment of maritime positioning ships which can carry a short brigade of troops plus equipment, supplies and transportation helicopters.

If we go ahead and purchase something along the lines of an Amphibian Assault Ship, like the US Wasp-class, don't we have to see a corresponding purchase of additional ASW helicopters, or even light attack aircraft, to complement their fast attack capabilities?

Not really, the Halifax Frigates are excellent anti-submarine platforms, what you would upgrade on something like a AAS is its anti-air capability, or Canada creates their own formation. They don't really need fast attack capability as our deployments are usually not resisted deployments, for the most part we depend on our allies for close in air support, tho with the JSF and its ability to use conformal fuel cells for transport they could be deployed to rough capability airstrips anywhere in the world without in flight refueling.

[Svartsengi]

Hey Captain. I forgot that the subs we purchased off the Brits were constructed in the 90's. I must have been thinking back to the Falklands Islands in 1982. Same class of sub?.

You mentioned in an earlier post that we have not fully replaced the Sea Kings yet. Was it supposed to take this long?. IIRC Chretien originally cancelled the contract to replace them with the Comorants which added a delay and increased the cost because we had to pay a penalty to get out of the contract. The EH 101 was what the Navy was looking for but we are getting them a model built by Sikorsky. Is this right and will they do as good of a job as the EH 101 in your opinion.

Is the Army still buying the Stryker?.

[Azure]

The deal for the helicopters being bought to replace the Sea Kings was delayed for some reason.

There was an article on it a few weeks ago.

[CaptainCrunch]

Originally Posted by Svartsengi

Hey Captain. I forgot that the subs we purchased off the Brits were constructed in the 90's. I must have been thinking back to the Falklands Islands in 1982. Same class of sub?.

You mentioned in an earlier post that we have not fully replaced the Sea Kings yet. Was it supposed to take this long?. IIRC Chretien originally cancelled the contract to replace them with the Comorants which added a delay and increased the cost because we had to pay a penalty to get out of the contract. The EH 101 was what the Navy was looking for but we are getting them a model built by Sikorsky. Is this right and will they do as good of a job as the EH 101 in your opinion.

Is the Army still buying the Stryker?.

The British used a couple of classes of subs in the Falklands, they used the Swiftsure Nuclear Submarines, and a two Oberon class diesel electric boats which interestingly enough were the Subs that Canada used until the recent replacement by the Upholder/Victoria class boats.

I think either you or I are a little confused on the helicopters, the Canadian forces did buy Comorants but they are land based search and rescue birds now. The H-92 Sikorsky Superhawk which has been designated as the CH-148 Cyclone.

The issue thats caused the delay is that the Canadian Government decided that the electronics and sub hunting equipment had to be developed in Canada so while the airframe and engines are ready to go, the electronics needed to hunt and prosecute subs isn't ready yet.

I wasn't happy with the selection of this bird originally because it doesn't have the engine power or the range of the Comorant which is a beautiful bird. But Dependant on the sub hunting equipment it should do well. The most unique feature of the Cyclone is that it uses a fly by wire system which will make it easier to fly. Again though the Cyclone can only stay on station for about half of the time of the EH-101, which is a crucial factor in terms of sub hunting which can take hours. However Canada created the innovative inflight helicopter refueling operation that the Americans do so well.

One thing that people don't realize is that Canada is incredibly good at anti-submarine operations.

The helicopters won't be delivered until later next year to the frigates so we'll continue to see the Seakings in use until then, our ships will have to do without anti-sub helicopters which is a massive handicap.

Edit: One other big problem with the new cyclone is that it doesn't use common parts with the EH-101 or any other Canadian Forces Helicopter, and the engine and airframe are relatively un-tested so the Navy doesn't know how they will react under the typical stress of maritime operations, for all that we know, they could end up being more maintenance intensive then the ancient Sea Kings.

[CaptainCrunch]

In terms of the Stryker or Mobile Gun System, the Canadian Government under the Liberals originally put in an order for 70, but the Conservatives effectively killed the Styker.

To me the Stryker is a terrible idea. First and foremost they are too big to be transported by the aircraft in Canads's airlift command and would have to be disassembled. Secondly a vehicle thats supposed to act as a main battle tank that uses a light armoured wheeled vehicle chassis is a stupid idea. It might be a little faster, but tires are far more vulnerable in a combat setting then treads and road wheels.

The armour on the Styker was too light to repel direct tank fire. And there were problems with the vehicle over balancing when the main gun was fired off center.

Also the main gun is a 105 mm main gun which is not powerful enough for a main tank's purpose. Canada's soon to arrive Leopard II's have a 120 mm smooth bore canon which far outranges the 105 and outpowers it.

The Stryker is just bad, I'm glad Canada killed it.

[Flash Walken]

The fact that we still have not replaced the sea kings, three full administrations after it became a serious issue is really saddening.

There's a great atricle in Last Month's Walrus about Hillier.

[CaptainCrunch]

Originally Posted by Flash Walken

The fact that we still have not replaced the sea kings, three full administrations after it became a serious issue is really saddening.

There's a great atricle in Last Month's Walrus about Hillier.

Unfortunately the Conservatives originally made the proper call on the Helicopters with the 101, but Chretien killed them out of spite and was more then willing to pay a half billion dollars to do it. I always resented him when he sneered and stated that the 101 was the cadillac of helicopters and implied that it was too good for our forces.