Kosovo declares independence from Serbia

[Flame Of Liberty]

Link

A "great job" started by good old Bill Clinton, when he bombed Beograde to "protect Albanians in Kosovo" that finally resulted in this so called "independence." I wonder where is the public outcry from the left? Imagine if the Kurds declared independence from Iraq, the left would crucify Bush for "breaking up a sovereign country."

[Aeneas]

"The wall came down in a thousand pieces, now everybody's building their own"
New Model Army, "Here Comes The War"

[CaramonLS]

Originally Posted by Flame Of Liberty

Link

A "great job" started by good old Bill Clinton, when he bombed Beograde to "protect Albanians in Kosovo" that finally resulted in this so called "independence." I wonder where is the public outcry from the left? Imagine if the Kurds declared independence from Iraq, the left would crucify Bush for "breaking up a sovereign country."

Stop trying to make it a political issue. The Kurds have been one of the most oppressed minorities in recent history and they deserve a state of their own.

Since when does not wanting independance for a people who deserve a state of their own become a "left value". What garbage FOL, even for you.

[Flame Of Liberty]

Originally Posted by CaramonLS

Stop trying to make it a political issue. The Kurds have been one of the most oppressed minorities in recent history and they deserve a state of their own.

Since when does not wanting independance for a people who deserve a state of their own become a "left value". What garbage FOL, even for you.

Umm...I was trying to point out double standards. Kosovo deserves independence and that justifies the bombing, but going to Iraq to free people (including Kurds) is not justified?

As for Kosovo itself, it should be renamed to Mafiastan, the way mafia from Kosovo spreads all over Europe puts the Russians or Chechens into shame.

[CaramonLS]

Originally Posted by Flame Of Liberty

Umm...I was trying to point out double standards. Kosovo deserves independence and that justifies the bombing, but going to Iraq to free people (including Kurds) is not justified?

As for Kosovo itself, it should be renamed to Mafiastan, the way mafia from Kosovo spreads all over Europe puts the Russians or Chechens into shame.

Because the Iraq war has nothing to do with the Kurds or freedom for their people. The Kurds are a minority spread across multiple Arab states and destablizing Iraq wont help them one bit, freeing between 10-15% of their people wont do a lick of good because in order to actually solve the problem, the Arab states containing large numbers of the Kurdish minority actually have to work together to achieve something.

If you want, we can turn this into yet another debate about the Iraq war, but "Freeing the Kurds" wasn't much of a reason for invading. An excuse if anything or even a side effect.

[tkflames]

Originally Posted by CaramonLS

Because the Iraq war has nothing to do with the Kurds or freedom for their people. The Kurds are a minority spread across multiple Arab states and destablizing Iraq wont help them one bit, freeing between 10-15% of their people wont do a lick of good because in order to actually solve the problem, the Arab states containing large numbers of the Kurdish minority actually have to work together to achieve something.

If you want, we can turn this into yet another debate about the Iraq war, but "Freeing the Kurds" wasn't much of a reason for invading. An excuse if anything or even a side effect.

I think its a very fine line when you begin talking about people deserving their own state and as a government endorsing that. I can name at least 3 cultures that have been oppressed equally if not worse for the last 50 years that "deserve" their own state. Don't get me wrong, I am glad Kosovo will be its own state, but the term "deserve" as you used earlier makes the argument very selective.

FOL: Who cares what the US says or thinks on this subject("right to self determination"). You are a) ignoring the fact in your original post that the US only sent targeted missions into Kosovo after the EU begged them to do so and b) that there was never an occupation of the country. They are not the people who have to live day to day in Kosovo. What does the left think? What does the right think? What do the new Candidates think? What does Arnold Schwarzenegger think? Who cares! Let the Palestinians and the Kurds and the Chechnyans build their own states. In Africa it is this "what does who superior nation think" that got us into the mess we are in there right now.

On a personal note since you brought up the US government, I wish they would stick the foreign policy makers in a makeshift White house in Baghdad or in the West Bank and let them make foreign policy there. It would accelerate their decision making and negotiations a little.

[octothorp]

There are similarities between Kosovo and Iraqi Kurdistan, but your reading of it is a little mixed up. Iraqi Kurdistan was operating as as autonomous region within Iraq following the first gulf war, similar to how Kosovo was operating under a special UN government, even though both it was within Serbia. The second invasion of Iraq didn't have a whole lot of practical impact on the Kurds; they were already operating as an autonomous region, they're still operating as an autonomous region, and they still have very little chance of getting the political support to declare independence. They can probably continue on indefinately as an autonomous region. On the other hand, because Kosovo had a UN provisional government, its autonomy was dependent on external political support, which could fade over time. It was necessary for them to move forward with their own independence mandate.

[Flash Walken]

Originally Posted by octothorp

There are similarities between Kosovo and Iraqi Kurdistan, but your reading of it is a little mixed up. Iraqi Kurdistan was operating as as autonomous region within Iraq following the first gulf war, similar to how Kosovo was operating under a special UN government, even though both it was within Serbia. The second invasion of Iraq didn't have a whole lot of practical impact on the Kurds; they were already operating as an autonomous region, they're still operating as an autonomous region, and they still have very little chance of getting the political support to declare independence. They can probably continue on indefinately as an autonomous region. On the other hand, because Kosovo had a UN provisional government, its autonomy was dependent on external political support, which could fade over time. It was necessary for them to move forward with their own independence mandate.

It's also harder geopoliticallly to swing a Kurdish state with Turkey sitting right on the border, who explicitly does not want a Kurdish state.

[FlamesAddiction]

Originally Posted by Flame Of Liberty

Link

A "great job" started by good old Bill Clinton, when he bombed Beograde to "protect Albanians in Kosovo" that finally resulted in this so called "independence." I wonder where is the public outcry from the left? Imagine if the Kurds declared independence from Iraq, the left would crucify Bush for "breaking up a sovereign country."

I can understand the Serb position on Kosovo. Kosovo has been a Serbian land for over 1000 years and is an important part to their history. In fact, much of their folklore and history as a people is entrenched in Kosovo, and the Albanian domination came in much more recent times. It's not like Slovenia, Croatia, BIH, Macedonia, and Montenegro that have unique histories... Kosovo is to Serbia what Nova Scotia is to Canada.

But on the other hand, I can see the EU and U.S. position that Serbia relinquished it's moral right to the area after the 1998-99 campaign against the Albanians who live there. Even before that, the Albanians were not considered full citizens of Serbia despite many tracing their roots back several generations. Europe is trying to rid their continent of these types of oppressive systems... next stop; Moldova and Belarus.

It is a very complicated issue though. The Serbian component of Bosnia said they will use this as a precedence and now they will work towards independence and possible unification with Serbia. Their position is that if Kosovo can gain independence with EU and U.S. support - but without UN support, then they should be able to do it with Russian support regardless of the EU, U.S., and UN.

As much as I am happy for Kosovars, I am wondering if the potential destablization of Balkans (again), is worth it.

Re: Kosovo vs. Iraq:

Kosovo is a Western probelm with a Western solution... hence the difference. NATO is a North American and European alliance designed to protect European and North American countries. It has the moral to authority to act in Europe.

[corporatejay]

Originally Posted by Flash Walken

It's also harder geopoliticallly to swing a Kurdish state with Turkey sitting right on the border, who explicitly does not want a Kurdish state.

I was going to post the same thing. You have the most "western" friendly muslim state in the world, who is stable and democratic and who generally wants to appease the west, and the last thing you want to do is piss them off buy forming Kurdistan when that's pretty much the only thing they've ever asked you NOT to do.

[CrusaderPi]

Its nothing personal against the Kosovo Albanians, but this declaration sends a shiver down my spine. Good for them, but it does give me some worry.

[Flame Of Liberty]

Originally Posted by tkflames

Let the Palestinians and the Kurds and the Chechnyans build their own states.

Palestinians have their own state, I believe it is called Jordan.

Same with Albanian Kosovars, they have a state too, I believe it is called Albania. After the NATO "took action" it sat idly and watched as Albanians forced Serbs to leave their homes. Now obviously there is an Albanian majority in Kosovo that can declare independence on a pretty much stolen land, all with the support of NATO, EU and the UN. Bravo.

[octothorp]

Originally Posted by Flame Of Liberty

Palestinians have their own state, I believe it is called Jordan.

Same with Albanian Kosovars, they have a state too, I believe it is called Albania. After the NATO "took action" it sat idly and watched as Albanians forced Serbs to leave their homes. Now obviously there is an Albanian majority in Kosovo that can declare independence on a pretty much stolen land, all with the support of NATO, EU and the UN. Bravo.

Valiant attempt to misrepresent the facts; even before the war, ethnic Albanians made up the vast majority of Kosovo's population, approximately 1.6 million to about .4 million Serbs. And many of those Serbs were new to Kosovo themselves, relocated from Bosnia and Croatia following the conflict there in the early 90s. Even without the relocation of these refugees back into Serbia, Kosovo would be overwhelmingly ethnic Albanian. Hardly stolen land; they'd still have a very strong claim to independence.

However, I do agree with you in regards to persecution of the Serbs in Kosovo, which has been and continues to be an ongoing problem, and it's typical of eastern europe where those who belong ethnically to a former dominating nation are treated as second class citizens; ethnic Russians living in Latvia experienced the same thing (although not as severely as Serbs in Kosovo).

[icarus]

If Kosovo is allowed by the UN to declare its independence unilaterally, then this has huge implications for the rest of the world. There are tons of countries around the world with separtist movements, Quebec and the Basque Country in Spain being two of the most high profile. In the Caucasus there are about four breakaway states yet to be fully recognised. I am sure the East Timorese would have preferred their independence by declaration rather than the bloodshed they endured.

Unilateral succession is one of the most touchy areas of public international law, and whatever happens with Kosovo is going to have a precedential impact for the rest of the world.

[Incogneto]

I didn't know Kosovo was part of Edmonton.

...oh, wait...you said SERBIA...not SIBERIA!

[FlamesAddiction]

Originally Posted by octothorp

Valiant attempt to misrepresent the facts; even before the war, ethnic Albanians made up the vast majority of Kosovo's population, approximately 1.6 million to about .4 million Serbs. And many of those Serbs were new to Kosovo themselves, relocated from Bosnia and Croatia following the conflict there in the early 90s. Even without the relocation of these refugees back into Serbia, Kosovo would be overwhelmingly ethnic Albanian. Hardly stolen land; they'd still have a very strong claim to independence.

I agree with you that it's not "stolen land" Albanians have been working the land there for generations and have made up the majority for long time, however the situation is more complicated than that.

As I mentioned earlier, Kosovo is the cradle of Serbian civilization. It was Serbia long before Albanians made up the majority. It's a slippery slope to determine at what point the ethnicity make up of a territory trumps historical, moral and legal soverignty. For example, what if in 500 years, Chinese make up 90% of Vancouver Island.... would they have a right to secede from Canada?

As you can see by my avatar, I am not unbiased in perspective of Balkan politics. I tend to sympathize with the Kosovar cause, but at the same time, Serbia has a valid argument as well. Then again, they made their bed in this situation...

[icarus]

It has already begun. As expected, the ripple effect for other states seeking independence is beginning:

Nagorno-Karabakh: http://www.moscowtimes.ru/stories/2008/02/18/003.html

Abkhazia and South Ossetia: http://en.rian.ru/world/20080218/99513243.html

Transdneister: http://www.tiraspoltimes.com/node/1503

[4X4]

Originally Posted by corporatejay

I was going to post the same thing. You have the most "western" friendly muslim state in the world, who is stable and democratic and who generally wants to appease the west, and the last thing you want to do is piss them off buy forming Kurdistan when that's pretty much the only thing they've ever asked you NOT to do.

Not to de-rail, but would anyone care to elaborate this a bit?

[Agamemnon]

Originally Posted by 4X4

Not to de-rail, but would anyone care to elaborate this a bit?

You mean on the Turkish/Kurdish issue? Obviously he's referring to Turkey as the most 'western friendly Muslim state' (probably due to NATO & possible EU membership). The Kurds have been a separatist group in Turkey for decades, spawning one of the most well-known terrorist groups (PKK - Kurdish Worker's Party - I think). If Kurdistan were to be established it would include parts of Iraq & Turkey. Turkey is adamantly against the creation of a Kurdish state on their border, especially including Turkish properties. Turkey just invaded 'Kurdistan' a few months ago, I think they may have even crossed into northern Iraq to pursue Kurdish rebels/terrorists/freedom fighters.

Not sure if that's what you're asking, but it's before 8am on a holiday and I've got nothing to do!

[4X4]

Originally Posted by Agamemnon

You mean on the Turkish/Kurdish issue? Obviously he's referring to Turkey as the most 'western friendly Muslim state' (probably due to NATO & possible EU membership). The Kurds have been a separatist group in Turkey for decades, spawning one of the most well-known terrorist groups (PKK - Kurdish Worker's Party - I think). If Kurdistan were to be established it would include parts of Iraq & Turkey. Turkey is adamantly against the creation of a Kurdish state on their border, especially including Turkish properties. Turkey just invaded 'Kurdistan' a few months ago, I think they may have even crossed into northern Iraq to pursue Kurdish rebels/terrorists/freedom fighters.

Not sure if that's what you're asking, but it's before 8am on a holiday and I've got nothing to do!

So what's the big deal? Turkey just doesn't want to give up the real estate? Or is it personal? The Kurds have pissed them off so badly that they'll never forgive/recognize a state of their own? Sorta like Israel?