Lets everyone just apologise for everything together!

[HOZ]

Great Opinion piece from American Scholar. Lengthy but interestiing

Apologies All Around

Imagine that you attend a dinner party where you get roaring drunk, insult all the guests, break your hostess’s Tiffany lamp, throw up all over the bathroom, make crude sexual advances toward the family’s teenage daughter (or son, depending), and, in backing out of the driveway, run over a bougainvillea and the cat. Imagine further that, sincerely contrite, you write a heartfelt apology — for breaking the lamp. Imagine further still that it’s not you who pens the letter of apology, but, say, your great-grandchild; and not to your original hosts, long dead, but to their great-grandchildren, but still only for having broken the lamp.

I know I for one have yet to get my Great grand-children to apologise for me. Though I do plan to write it in my Will.

I would never denigrate any civilized response of anyone for harm he may have done or misbehavior he may have engaged in. But apologies offered by people to their contemporaries for actions taken long before any of them were born strike me as vacuous and more than a little exhibitionistic.

[comrade]

Let's see here, before I read the article or search The American Scholar, let me guess:

1) It's an article posted by HOZ.
2) It's from a magazine patriotically called "The American Scholar".
3) The quotes HOZ pulls from the article seem to ridicule apologizing for your forefathers mistakes.

wild guess: A right wing op-ed justifying why apologizing for slavery is foolish, probably written by a white guy.

How'd I do?

[Locke]

Originally Posted by comrade

Let's see here, before I read the article or search The American Scholar, let me guess:

1) It's an article posted by HOZ.
2) It's from a magazine patriotically called "The American Scholar".
3) The quotes HOZ pull's from the article seem to ridicule apologizing for your forefathers mistakes.

wild guess: A right wing op-ed justifying why apologizing for slavery is foolish, probably written by a white guy.

How'd I do?

About as well as a solid left-winger who needs a hug could.

This article isnt perfect, but neither is it crafted from the pure excrement extraced from a golden hind either.

I imagine that where we really need to be is somewhere in the middle.

On that note though, I will stipulate that anyone who wants my fortune (that I'm bound to amass) must hug me.

Hah, they'll have to hug my dead remains which I'm sure will not be pretty! And I'm talking pre-embalming! The coroner wont even be allowed to hose me down first.

[Bill Bumface]

Originally Posted by comrade

Let's see here, before I read the article or search The American Scholar, let me guess:

1) It's an article posted by HOZ.
2) It's from a magazine patriotically called "The American Scholar".
3) The quotes HOZ pull's from the article seem to ridicule apologizing for your forefathers mistakes.

wild guess: A right wing op-ed justifying why apologizing for slavery is foolish, probably written by a white guy.

How'd I do?

*applause*

The oppression of blacks in the US should be ignored, since we didn't start it, some people a really long time ago did, and it's not our fault it's a self propagating problem that will continue to last past our generation. Why should we deal with it?

[CrusaderPi]

In other news the new Aussie PM will apologize to the aborigines. 'cause it'll make things better.

[RougeUnderoos]

Originally Posted by CrusaderPi

In other news the new Aussie PM will apologize to the aborigines. 'cause it'll make things better.

Will it make things worse?

The argument seems to be "why bother, it doesn't mean anything?", so can't that go both ways? You know, "why not bother if it doesn't mean anything".

Maybe an apology does matter to some people?

Look at it this way -- if some fossilized virgin in Europe back in the day decreed that your grandparents should be taken from their homes and sent to an institution run by sadists, religious loons and pedophiles, would you brush it off as "it was a long time ago"?

I wouldn't.

[Locke]

Originally Posted by RougeUnderoos

Will it make things worse?

I dont think they speak english.

They might eat him.

I guess it depends on how you define the term 'worse.'

[CrusaderPi]

It might, but probably won't because no one really cares about empty words. ('cept maybe the Muslims - 40 lashes et al)

Maybe an apology will dredge up some bad feeling. Just like it might give some people a warm fuzzy. I'm sorry if I feel these displays are pointless.


Hey, didja notice the Conservative are going to support the ND motion to call on Japan to apologize to comfort girls?

[RougeUnderoos]

I edited my response.

[Wookie]

I don't need an apology from Germans because they bombed my relatives.?.?

[CrusaderPi]

Ok, so I'll attack it from the other direction.

Last week Edmonton Ukraines held a ceremony marking the 75th anniversary of the Stalin induced famine the wreck Soviet Ukraine. Now, a fair % of my genetic makeup is Ukrainian. And I know for absolute certain my great grandmother refused to talk about the famine until they day she died. I also know that the family lost quite a few members during the famine. But what would an apology do? Wouldn't do a damn thing for my family. Wouldn't do a thing for me. And it sure as hell wouldn't do anything for my relatives that suffered.

We just see these things differently, but I see these apologies as pointless grandstanding.

Anyway, I'll end with a historical fun fact:

The monument to the Ukraine famine that stands in front of Edmonton's City Hall was the first in the world to mark the man made famine. It was erected despite heavy pressure from the Soviet Union, who at that time, still denied a famine had occurred.

[4X4]

Originally Posted by Wookie

I don't need an apology from Germans because they bombed my relatives.?.?

Maybe not the type of thing that generates consistant emotions from people.

Example: Jewish family 'A' gets sent to concentration camp. One member survives. Said member can recount horrors that few others can.

Jewish family 'B' manages to hide throughout WWII. They still feel hard done by, but maybe they don't really have the same hard feelings as family 'A'.

Feel free to replace Jewish with Gypsy, Romanian, Ukrainian or any other "lesser" people. Aboriginal? Sure, why not.

[Hack&Lube]

This sounds like a perfect tradition to add to Festivus to counteract the airing of griefs. It could even replace the feats of strength.

[HOZ]

Originally Posted by Hack&Lube

This sounds like a perfect tradition to add to Festivus to counteract the airing of griefs. It could even replace the feats of strength.

Festivus is like the Olympics.....you can't take anything out! It can only grow!

[HOZ]

Originally Posted by comrade

Let's see here, before I read the article or search The American Scholar, let me guess:

1) It's an article posted by HOZ.
2) It's from a magazine patriotically called "The American Scholar".
3) The quotes HOZ pulls from the article seem to ridicule apologizing for your forefathers mistakes.

wild guess: A right wing op-ed justifying why apologizing for slavery is foolish, probably written by a white guy.

How'd I do?

Very poorly.

Here is a link to what they are. The American Scholar Historically filled with Takeovertheworld Right wing fanatics like Albert Einstein, Anne Morrow Lindbergh, and John Edgar Wideman.

[Hack&Lube]

Originally Posted by HOZ

Festivus is like the Olympics.....you can't take anything out! It can only grow!

Feat of Strength

[Wookie]

Originally Posted by 4X4

Maybe not the type of thing that generates consistent emotions from people.

Example: Jewish family 'A' gets sent to concentration camp. One member survives. Said member can recount horrors that few others can.

Jewish family 'B' manages to hide throughout WWII. They still feel hard done by, but maybe they don't really have the same hard feelings as family 'A'.

Feel free to replace Jewish with Gypsy, Romanian, Ukrainian or any other "lesser" people. Aboriginal? Sure, why not.

Eh... Sure, But do the grand kids of German people need to apologize to Family A survivor or their family? I don't think so.

[Ford Prefect]

In the spirit of the article's opening paragraph, I'd like to apologize for throwing up all over my girlfriend's parents' cat at their Christmas party when I was 16. Although they should apologize for feeding all that eggnog to a 16 year old in the first place. I don't apologize for boinking said girlfriend on the living room floor after everyone else went to bed though.

[Flashpoint]

This is exactly why the Japanese shouldn't apologize for starving all those POW's in WWII. Or the Butahn death march.

Pretty soon all those vets will be dead, so it won't matter right? No apology necessary.

I am going to utter a platitude here, but I think in context it is pretty important - "Those who forget history are doomed to repeat it". To a limited extent you can see it in how the Muslim community in the US is generally viewed through the same optic of mistrust as the Japanese in World War II.

By attempting to make amends for past transgressions, we not only acknowledge the mistakes of the past, we also keep them at the forefront of our consciousness. It would be easier to just forget and say "let bygones be bygones", but the past is full of lessons that we need to learn from - even several generations removed.

Look at interracial marriage vs gay marriage. The lesson there is that two adults under the law have the right to self determination. Look at segregated schools in the south in the 1960's - the majority isn't always right in a democracy.

Looking into our history and saying "we abused the indigenous people of Canada" has a lot more impact when you follow it with "and here is what we are going to do to make up for it".

[Thunderball]

What I find mildly amusing and ironic is most of the people who are in favor of apologizing for actions done 50+ years ago, are typically the same people who vehemently oppose capital punishment on the grounds that a simple act will not make the initial act of evil go away. Yes, they are very different creatures, but they both have the same goals... restitution and justice.

So why do we have it in our heads that apologizing for something that the perpetrators who committed the offense are dead, and the victims are either long dead, or nearing the end and likely uninterested in rehashing the past will somehow make things better.

Should we forget? Nope. Should we erect monuments to atrocities and serious discriminatory mistakes? Sure, why not.

Should we as a society be expected to grovel and pay out to the descendants for something they neither witnessed, experienced or quite probably understand? No. The act in itself is discriminatory since every "civilized state" does not acknowledge every atrocity they have committed. We acknowledge some, and ignore others. Do Italian and German Canadians get apologies and payouts for being wrongfully interred? Nope... I mean, sure, their homelands were aggressor states, but they weren't... hell, Italy switched sides and became an ally. Yet, Japanese Canadians received an apology and reparations... Has France formally apologized to Germany for Versailles which essentially gave rise to Hitler? Nope. That act of selfishness created a desperate and wounded state capable of anything... and it did... indirectly leading to the death of millions. Have England and France apologized for the hell they have wrought in Africa and the Middle East through their Imperialism? Nope. Their blunders are directly related to the border wars in Africa and the unease in Palestine/Israel causing the deaths of millions. Why are some atrocities more important than others?