Man claims to have gun, is killed by the cops, turns out its a hairbrush - Calgarypuck Forums - The Unofficial Calgary Flames Fan Community

Jayems · 11-13-2007, 01:06 PM

So I guess I'm looking for CP's vast and varying opinions about this story.

Basically, the story goes as follows:

There is some sort of disturbance at a residence between a mother and a son. The son has a history of mental illness, and is shouting that he has a gun. The 911 operator asks if he has a gun, and she says "you heard it from his mouth."

The police arrive, and the 18-year-old comes towards the police with "a dark object tucked under his shirt." He refuses to stop, so they shoot and kill him. 20 shots are fired, the story says.

A witness at the scene says that he put his hands up before the shooting started, but at the end of the story, it says nothing of the sort.

Rev. Al Sharpton's Action Network is getting involved, so I assume the victim is African-American.

But are people really surprised? The police were probably dispatched to a man with a gun call, and the guy won't show what he's got under his shirt, won't stop...

I guess my beef is that it's being portrayed as they murdered a guy with a hairbrush, and happen to mention the fact he refused to follow orders and claimed to have a gun as subsidiary information to the story. It is certainly unfortunate that other options couldn't be used, but I think this is a situation where a tazer could have resulted in the death of an officer if he did in fact have a gun.

Is the media just sensationalizing a story because the victim is presumably black, killed by presumably white officers? Do you guys think race is the major component here?

I guess I'm just trying to see why this particular incident is receiving so much attention and other aren't.

Anyway, here is the story:

http://www.cnn.com/2007/US/11/13/ny.shooting/index.html

Burninator · 11-13-2007, 01:09 PM

Well if the old man getting tasered thread is any indication of the opinions here. This kid had it coming.

OILFAN #81 · 11-13-2007, 01:10 PM

Unfortunate the gentleman is dead however I side with the cops with this one. If he refused to show what he had and moved towards them after they told him to stop and put his hands up, there isn't much more they could have done. They have to worry about their own safety and they asked him to stop and put his hands up to which he didn't until too late.

Locke · 11-13-2007, 01:15 PM

Police dont dick around with people charging at them claiming they have a gun. Period. These guys are regular people with families too and there is no reason for them to take this unnecessary risk. What if it had been a real gun and he'd killed 10 cops?

That being said though, 20 shots fired? His mom not mentioning anything about history of mental illness to the 911 operator that might change how the police handle the situation? Something doesnt add.

CaptainCrunch · 11-13-2007, 01:18 PM

Sounds like suicide by cop.

As soon as a cop is called to a scene and the word gun or armed is used, the first rule is to be careful for your own life and the innocent people around the suspect who's life is placed a distant third.

Personally, I'm having a lot of trouble with the way the black community is portrayed and allowing to portray themselves in these instances. They recently awarded a kid who was sentence to prison and then released on statutory rape charges, and now they're jumping on this kid as a martry to their cause.

Dion · 11-13-2007, 01:22 PM

I'm wondering if a database needs to be set up that lists those who have serious mental health problems. At least then the police could put a suspects name in their computer which would give them a better idea of the person they are dealing wth.

If the database shows that this suspect is mentally disturbed it might force police to look at other means of calming this person down before they decide to shoot.

20 shots to down a suspect doesn't seem right in my books. It should never take 20 shots to down a suspect.

The Yen Man · 11-13-2007, 01:26 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dion

20 shots to down a suspect doesn't seem right in my books. It should never take 20 shots to down a suspect.

Bad cops have bad aim?

octothorp · 11-13-2007, 01:26 PM

Some of the blame needs to go on the mother. It seems like the 911 call is misleading, as she seems to tell the operator that there definitely is a gun involved, not that he claims to have a gun but he won't show it to her. The fact that the mother had apparently tried to have him hospitalized earlier in the day suggests that she wanted to escalate the situation. Obviously the police need to follow protocol, but if a boy's mother tells you that the boy has a gun and is dangerous, you've got to assume that she's telling the truth.

Resolute 14 · 11-13-2007, 01:27 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Locke

That being said though, 20 shots fired? His mom not mentioning anything about history of mental illness to the 911 operator that might change how the police handle the situation? Something doesnt add.

How many officers were at the scene?

If you think about it, one cop in fear of his life is probably going to shoot 3-4 times. As has been said: they just don't dick around when they believe there is a gun.

4-5 officers responding, all with guns drawn, all trained to shoot in self-defence. 20 bullets is easy.

Table 5 · 11-13-2007, 01:28 PM

Bed-Stuy (where this happened) is a pretty ghetto part of town, there's bad stuff going down all the time. I'm sure any cop going into this situation would have been on edge, and with good reason. Cops get shot at quite a bit here.

Burninator · 11-13-2007, 01:28 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dion

20 shots to down a suspect doesn't seem right in my books. It should never take 20 shots to down a suspect.

It's not that uncommon. You have 3 or 4 officers with guns drawn, and they each fire 3 or 4 shots each. There is your twenty shots in about 2 and a half seconds. However that doesn't excuse them in any way.

JayP · 11-13-2007, 01:30 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Locke

Police dont dick around with people charging at them claiming they have a gun. Period. These guys are regular people with families too and there is no reason for them to take this unnecessary risk. What if it had been a real gun and he'd killed 10 cops?

That being said though, 20 shots fired? His mom not mentioning anything about history of mental illness to the 911 operator that might change how the police handle the situation? Something doesnt add.

I agree. If you claim to have a gun and hold an object under your shirt like a gun there's no way the cops are at fault there. Even if the cops knew the guys had mental illness that doesn't change what's at stake there. Someone without mental disabilities can pretend to have a gun just the same.

20 shots fired seems like a lot, but who know what police protocol actually is? I'm sure that when they're in that sort of situation protocol is to fire several shots to ensure the target is taken down. Add in the fact that there's several cops there and it doesn't seem out of hand.

The bystander comments are very conflicting. If the kid actually put his hands up and dropped the brush like the one bystander says I'm sure there would be a lot more outrage in the other comments. I don't agree at all with the belief that cops should have to see a gun before they assume you have one - if you're stupid enough to challenge the cops and say you have a gun then it's your own fault.

Dion · 11-13-2007, 01:30 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Locke

Police dont dick around with people charging at them claiming they have a gun. Period. These guys are regular people with families too and there is no reason for them to take this unnecessary risk. What if it had been a real gun and he'd killed 10 cops?

If the cops knew he had a history of mental health problems they might have handled it differently. Maybe they get a trained counseller on scene to try and reason with the person before they use force.

Back in my early 20's I had a good friend who suffered from Schizophrenia. One afternoon he went a little bezerk and tried to kill his mother. One of the cops that arrived at the scene new this friend of mine and his illness. Instead of using force he managed to calm him down enough and was able to get him to come out of the house peacefully.

CaptainCrunch · 11-13-2007, 01:33 PM

From the 20 shots involved, I remember reading that different police departments have different training standards as far as discharging your weapons go.

Some departments are trained to fire one shot, then pause then another as needed.

I know in Vegas the cops are trained to double tap, one shot to the center mass, the second aimed shot to the head.

But 20 shots dosen't sound reasonable, and I'd be interested to see what the autopsy and investigation digs up.

Dion · 11-13-2007, 01:34 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Burninator

It's not that uncommon. You have 3 or 4 officers with guns drawn, and they each fire 3 or 4 shots each. There is your twenty shots in about 2 and a half seconds. However that doesn't excuse them in any way.

You don't need 3 or 4 cops shooting similtaneously. They are trained marksmen and one shooting should be sufficent.

Locke · 11-13-2007, 01:35 PM

I hear you Dion, but the lady on the phone didnt tell them that. Its a real simple process.

Step 1: Neutralize Gun.
Step 2: Ask questions.

This process is what is causing all the uproar.

If she had said, "He claims to have a gun, but hes been having mental issues lately and I cant say for certain whether he does or not." Then maybe the cops would have approached him more tentatively.

Conversely, they might have fired 40 shots because now all they know is that a wacked out head case is running at them with a gun.

Resolute 14 · 11-13-2007, 01:35 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dion

You don't need 3 or 4 cops shooting similtaneously. They are trained marksmen and one shooting should be sufficent.

Yes, it would be, but you can't expect each cop to hold their fire expecting one of the others to shoot instead.

Dion · 11-13-2007, 01:38 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Snakeeye

Yes, it would be, but you can't expect each cop to hold their fire expecting one of the others to shoot instead.

Usually when you have situations like this someone is in command giving orders as what to do.

CaptainCrunch · 11-13-2007, 01:38 PM

One thing that gets exagerated badly is the concept of marksmenship with a pistol, for the most part, they're designed around close in work and dumping as many bullets into the center mass as possible. If your nervous or have a shaky hand, more then likely your going to miss, and as you continue to shoot, the recoil is going to take your rounds high and to the right. Anything outside of lets say 10 meters is iffy territory.

I always laugh at the movies where the guy with a pistol takes aim and shoots at the guy on the third floor of a building two city blocks away and hits him.

Resolute 14 · 11-13-2007, 01:41 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dion

Usually when you have situations like this someone is in command giving orders as what to do.

Indeed, and a standing command, as mentioned above, is protect self first, then ask questions. In a reaction situation, there isn't time to wait for whoever is asking as an incident commander to bark an order at one officer to shoot. It's self defence, and training takes over for all officers.