Research shows Neanderthals may have talked

[sadora]

Interesting article. Just thought some of you here would be interested.

http://news.yahoo.com/s/nm/20071018/...erthals_speech

[Resolute 14]

[killer_carlson]

snort snort

come on Mac T, let me have a shift

click,

grunt

snort snort

[JohnnyB]

This doesn't seem revolutionary to me at all. Neanderthal's wouldn't be capable of fully human speech because they wouldn't have had a human vocal tract capable of all the same sounds as us, but the notion of simpler Neanderthal speech, or a combination of speech and sign language is not alien at all to the linguistic academic community. I think the idea of Neanderthals as nothing but grunting, idiotic man-apes is just a popular image not endorsed by most anthropologists or linguists.

[McG]

well, its certainly talking, but it does indeed lack intelligence.

team 1260, Edmonton.

[blankall]

Originally Posted by JohnnyB

This doesn't seem revolutionary to me at all. Neanderthal's wouldn't be capable of fully human speech because they wouldn't have had a human vocal tract capable of all the same sounds as us, but the notion of simpler Neanderthal speech, or a combination of speech and sign language is not alien at all to the linguistic academic community. I think the idea of Neanderthals as nothing but grunting, idiotic man-apes is just a popular image not endorsed by most anthropologists or linguists.

There is actually a lot of evidence to point to the fact that Neanderthal's were in fact smarter than humans. I see no reason why they wouldn't be capable of full human speech.


I don't think this stuff about neanderthal talking is new at all. I think the bigger point of the paper was the fact they were able to extract such well preserved DNA and then link it to behavior. There seems to be a constant resistance to the fact neanderthals were intelligent. They've already found hyoid bones and other evidence but people refuse to recognize it. I am also a science nerd

[JohnnyB]

Originally Posted by blankall

There is actually a lot of evidence to point to the fact that Neanderthal's were in fact smarter than humans. I see no reason why they wouldn't be capable of full human speech.

The reason that Neanderthals wouldn't have been capable of full human speech is a physical one. Their supra-laryngeal vocal tracts would not have been capable of producing the vowels [ i ], [ u ], or [a] which are fundamental to full human speech because they are the most discernible vowels in speech perception. They're crucial to full human speech. Because Neanderthals' did not have a glottis that had dropped down in their throats like us humans develop as we mature out of babyhood Neanderthals would have been capable of only a sort of quasi-human speech lacking those super-vowels and with a sort of constant nasal quality.

I think the bigger point of the paper was the fact they were able to extract such well preserved DNA and then link it to behavior.

Yeah, I agree. I think the article in the link is kind of silly and beside the point. It's nothing revolutionary that Neanderthals may have had speech, it's just the discovery that they possessed the modified FOXP2 that is associated with language abilities in humans, and which can now be traced further back than previously thought that is the real point of interest.

[doozwimp]

I've always thought of neanderthals as talking beasts.

[JohnnyB]

Originally Posted by doozwimp

I've always thought of neanderthals as talking beasts.

That's pretty much how I feel about us.

[Ironhorse]

Well, there is one a few offices down the hall from mine as we speak....

[troutman]

No kidding - don't they remember Fred and Barney?

[blankall]

Originally Posted by JohnnyB

The reason that Neanderthals wouldn't have been capable of full human speech is a physical one. Their supra-laryngeal vocal tracts would not have been capable of producing the vowels [ i ], [ u ], or [a] which are fundamental to full human speech because they are the most discernible vowels in speech perception. They're crucial to full human speech. Because Neanderthals' did not have a glottis that had dropped down in their throats like us humans develop as we mature out of babyhood Neanderthals would have been capable of only a sort of quasi-human speech lacking those super-vowels and with a sort of constant nasal quality.



Yeah, I agree. I think the article in the link is kind of silly and beside the point. It's nothing revolutionary that Neanderthals may have had speech, it's just the discovery that they possessed the modified FOXP2 that is associated with language abilities in humans, and which can now be traced further back than previously thought that is the real point of interest.

touche... Do you think they wouldnt have been able to have any "full" speech, or just not speech that we would recognize as totally human? By full, I mean capable of communicated complex thoughts to the same extent and articulation our language is.

[JohnnyB]

Originally Posted by blankall

touche... Do you think they wouldnt have been able to have any "full" speech, or just not speech that we would recognize as totally human? By full, I mean capable of communicated complex thoughts to the same extent and articulation our language is.

Just how well developed their language capacity was is up for debate. I would think it quite likely that Neanderthals were capable of human-like language, but what exactly a Neanderthal language would have been is a question that there doesn't seem to be an answer for yet.

[alltherage]

I knew we shoulda whacked 'em when we had the chance!

[AC]

Well knowing that Neanderthals and Homo sapiens occupied the same areas at the same time, I'm more interested in the interactions these two had.

It's generally thought that Homo sapiens were simply better suited for the environment and the competition between the two, and that, in addition to other factors, lead to the end of the Neanderthals by the hands (indirectly or perhaps directly) of Homo sapiens.

[JohnnyB]

Originally Posted by AnthonyCook

Well knowing that Neanderthals and Homo sapiens occupied the same areas at the same time, I'm more interested in the interactions these two had.

I often think we see vestiges of some of those interactions walking around on the street today...

Anyways, the question of Neanderthal language is probably extremely important in determining our edge in the 'survival of the fittest' marathon.

[Caged Great]

Anybody who's been to Vancouver could've told you that

[mykalberta]

Originally Posted by blankall

There is actually a lot of evidence to point to the fact that Neanderthal's were in fact smarter than humans. I see no reason why they wouldn't be capable of full human speech.

Just wondering what evidence you have or know of? I would be fascinated to know of a race that lived on earth that is now extinct who were smarter than humans.

[JohnnyB]

Originally Posted by mykalberta

Just wondering what evidence you have or know of?

There is no conclusive evidence, only speculation, which is largely built around Neanderthal brain size being greater than that of modern humans.

I believe Neanderthals and modern humans had fairly similar brain size to body mass ratios, which would indicate similar intelligence and makes the question of Neanderthal language more interesting. If humans and Neanderthals were equally intelligent, but Neanderthals were much more physically dominating than humans, it would suggest that humans had an additional evolutionary advantage. A prominent theory is that our evolutionary advantage is having a vocal tract that enables more effective and efficient vocal communication.

It's quite plausible that Neanderthals were slightly more intelligent than humans, but failed to survive in conflict with humans because of inferior vocal communication.

[JimmytheT]

Originally Posted by McG

well, its certainly talking, but it does indeed lack intelligence.

team 1260, Edmonton.

Well done.

Pity me for this is my only sports radio option where I am.