Get it RIGHT Alberta-Royalty Review - petition

[First Lady]

By now I am sure most of you have heard about the Royalty Review and have an opinion one way or the other.
You can read the Alberta Alliance Party's response to it here:
http://www.allianceopposition.ca/?q=node/32

There is also a website aimed at educating Albertans and they have started an online petition.
http://www.getitrightalberta.ca/about_this_site/

[burn_this_city]

I read the blurb and as a oil sands worker I applaud what you guys are saying.. That review was extremely short sighted and IMHO was a complete joke. People who deny the reasons listed here just don't understand the way the industry works.

[Azure]

What I can't figure out is what exactly does the government want or 'need' with more money?

Other than that, personally I don't think giving the government even more is a better idea.

The auditor general already accused the provincial tories of wasting money on personal crap....and bonuses that were sometimes greater than their salary. Give the government even more money and they'll find ways to screw up even more stuff.

[RougeUnderoos]

How big a difference is this going to make to the industry's bottom line?

The only number I've heard is "2 billion more to the province", which sure sounds like a lot, but for all I know it's a drop in the bucket. If they are making a 200 billion a year, which for all I know is possible, 2 billion more to the province doesn't sound like much. But if they are "only" making say 10 billion, kicking in 2 billion more to the tax man is obviously a killer.

So does anyone know what those numbers are? How much are they paying now versus how much they'd be paying with this "plan"?

[Incinerator]

Originally Posted by Azure

What I can't figure out is what exactly does the government want or 'need' with more money?

Other than that, personally I don't think giving the government even more is a better idea.

The auditor general already accused the provincial tories of wasting money on personal crap....and bonuses that were sometimes greater than their salary. Give the government even more money and they'll find ways to screw up even more stuff.

I agree, it's not like Ed's planning for an "Ed Bucks" come election time, or is he?

[Azure]

Originally Posted by Incinerator

I agree, it's not like Ed's planning for an "Ed Bucks" come election time, or is he?

Don't get me wrong....the Alberta government has done a lot of useful things with the surplus money.

Yes, things like education, health care, etc, etc might need more funding....but whats the point of providing money to build a new school if there are no workers available to build it?

I know one of the schools here in town has had the funds needed to renovate for 5 years now.....only this past summer were they available to finally get contracters in to do the work.

[automaton 3]

Originally Posted by Azure

What I can't figure out is what exactly does the government want or 'need' with more money?

Other than that, personally I don't think giving the government even more is a better idea.

The auditor general already accused the provincial tories of wasting money on personal crap....and bonuses that were sometimes greater than their salary. Give the government even more money and they'll find ways to screw up even more stuff.

Not being an ass here but just want to point out that this is "our" money as Albertans that we're talking about here - not the "government's money".

And its not about "needing" more money, but what is fair and reasonable given all of the circumstances. Seems incredibly dumb on our part if we've been selling our very valuable, but very finite (especially natural gas which is getting used up at an alarming rate) products too cheaply.

There has to be a balance IMO...but even the mighty EnCana IIRC admitted that there may be some room to increase royalties.

Not to get OT but the Encana 1/2 page message in the paper pissed me right off. IMO it came across pretty condescending. If they don't like things here and your $6.5 BILLION dollar profit , then get the heck out and don't let the door hit you in the ass. I'm sure that we can find some other oil company to work for a mere "6 BILLION" in your stead. If others took it the same as me their ad probably did more harm than good.

[Phaneuf3]

online petitions make a difference...... no really they do....... really....

[Azure]

Originally Posted by automaton 3

Not being an ass here but just want to point out that this is "our" money as Albertans that we're talking about here - not the "government's money".

And its not about "needing" more money, but what is fair and reasonable given all of the circumstances. Seems incredibly dumb on our part if we've been selling our very valuable, but very finite (especially natural gas which is getting used up at an alarming rate) products too cheaply.

There has to be a balance IMO...but even the mighty EnCana IIRC admitted that there may be some room to increase royalties.

Not to get OT but the Encana 1/2 page message in the paper pissed me right off. IMO it came across pretty condescending. If they don't like things here and your $6.5 BILLION dollar profit , then get the heck out and don't let the door hit you in the ass. I'm sure that we can find some other oil company to work for a mere "6 BILLION" in your stead. If others took it the same as me their ad probably did more harm than good.

How much extra do you want?

Most of us are already benefiting from the 'finite' resources that our province has. Mostly through work.

Seriously....any company would want to maximize their profit....Encana said 'nothing' wrong....although it might seem a bit greedy to us considering how much money they're making.

Unless you want 'ralph bucks' each year.

A lot of good that does.

Now....a slight increase in royalties might not be a problem. But 20%? I don't think so.

[Incinerator]

Originally Posted by automaton 3

Not being an ass here but just want to point out that this is "our" money as Albertans that we're talking about here - not the "government's money".

It's only our money in theory, fat chance seeing any of it, where's our West LRT line? Oh wait, steady Eddie don't want to share a dime with Calgary. How'bout knockin' 5% off the income tax, you wish.

What exactly do you think Stelmach is gonna give us once he got his 20%? Sweet Eff All that's what.

[Azure]

Originally Posted by Incinerator

It's only our money in theory, fat chance seeing any of it, where's our West LRT line? Oh wait, steady Eddie don't want to share a dime with Calgary. How'bout knockin' 5% off the income tax, you wish.

What exactly do you think Stelmach is gonna give us once he got his 20%? Sweet Eff All that's what.

I agree...sorta.

Money is already there to fund the West LRT line. 20% more royalties isn't going to change anything....except give more money to the government to sit around on.

[RougeUnderoos]

Originally Posted by Azure

Now....a slight increase in royalties might not be a problem. But 20%? I don't think so.

Okay, what does that mean?

Does it mean "the report says they should pay 20% more -- it used to be 1%, now it's 21%"?

Or does it mean "they report says they should pay 20% more -- it used to be 1%, now it's 1.2%"

Considering the loot that is pouring into just Encana, another 2 billion bucks a year yanked out of the whole industry seems like a pretty paltry sum in the grand scheme of things.

[Azure]

Originally Posted by RougeUnderoos

Okay, what does that mean?

Does it mean "the report says they should pay 20% more -- it used to be 1%, now it's 21%"?

Or does it mean "they report says they should pay 20% more -- it used to be 1%, now it's 1.2%"

Considering the loot that is pouring into just Encana, another 2 billion bucks a year yanked out of the whole industry seems like a pretty paltry sum in the grand scheme of things.

I have no idea what 2 billion means to 'alberta' as far as projects here are concerned, so I have don't know how much it would effect us that way.

I would rather the money be put back into the economy by Encana than the government take it.

Considering of course that the government has a habit of wasting money.

The way I understand it is that royalties are 15% now.....this report says they could be put up to 35%.

[Flame On]

Anyone know of a petition I can sign up to that would support the government in changing the royalty status?
By the way it's not "the government" asking for the money, it's an independant review panel. How independant are the Oil companies again?

[automaton 3]

Originally Posted by Azure

How much extra do you want?

Most of us are already benefiting from the 'finite' resources that our province has. Mostly through work.

Seriously....any company would want to maximize their profit....Encana said 'nothing' wrong....although it might seem a bit greedy to us considering how much money they're making.

Unless you want 'ralph bucks' each year.

A lot of good that does.

Now....a slight increase in royalties might not be a problem. But 20%? I don't think so.

Anything less than the going rate (for lack of a better term) for comparable products in comparable jurisdictions would be incredibly stupid on our part.

If the oil industry can demonstrate to Albertans that the current scheme is fair based on comparables, then good so be it. What I've been reading so far from the oil industry has amounted to, IMO mostly sabrerattling though.

My point is the resources are finite, so we better get market rate for them while we've got them.

The Ralph bucks were a terrible idea. There is no end of constructive ways in which any extra royalty money (and I'm not saying there is any extra royalty money out there) could be utilized now, or saved for future generations.

[Azure]

Originally Posted by Flame On

Anyone know of a petition I can sign up to that would support the government in changing the royalty status?
By the way it's not "the government" asking for the money, it's an independant review panel. How independant are the Oil companies again?

The independent review board sure isn't going to get the money, are they?

[Azure]

Originally Posted by automaton 3

Anything less than the going rate (for lack of a better term) for comparable products in comparable jurisdictions would be incredibly stupid on our part.

Very good point.

80 bucks a barrel is good for Alberta....billion dollar profits for the oil companies is good for Alberta.

We have all experienced the 'trickle down effect.'

If the oil industry can demonstrate to Albertans that the current scheme is fair based on comparables, then good so be it. What I've been reading so far from the oil industry has amounted to, IMO mostly sabrerattling though.

Of course they could be sabre-rattling. Why shouldn't they?

Any company will look to maximize their profits. And if pulling a couple billion from developing projects here in Alberta and sticking it into numerous projects down in Texas helps Encana make even more profit....I don't for a second doubt that they will do it.

My point is the resources are finite, so we better get market rate for them while we've got them.

Agreed.

I have no problem with a slight increase in royalties if the government wants 'more' money.

I don't see why....considering a bigger surplus isn't exactly going to help any right now.

The Ralph bucks were a terrible idea. There is no end of constructive ways in which any extra royalty money (and I'm not saying there is any extra royalty money out there) could be utilized now, or saved for future generations.

Technically....with such an increase in royalties(20%)....that is exactly what people are looking for.

More Ralph bucks.

You have to look at this two ways. Does it benefit Alberta more if Encana keeps the money....and royalties are kept the same or even increased slightly....or is it better for Alberta if the government jacks up the royalties 20% and pulls in 2 billion more to add to the surplus?

Not to mention the fact that if we generate a bigger surplus....Ottawa might come knocking and demand an even bigger handout to the other provinces.