Holocaust denier jailed in Germany - Calgarypuck Forums - The Unofficial Calgary Flames Fan Community

Cowperson · 02-15-2007, 02:50 PM

You'll remember Ernst Zundel from his days in Canada . . . . today he was jailed in Germany for five years for denying the Holocaust.

http://edition.cnn.com/2007/WORLD/eu....ap/index.html

Cowperson

MarchHare · 02-15-2007, 02:58 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Cowperson

You'll remember Ernst Zundel from his days in Canada . . . . today he was jailed in Germany for five years for denying the Holocaust.

http://edition.cnn.com/2007/WORLD/eu....ap/index.html

Cowperson

Denying the Holocaust is absolute folly. Zundel is an idiot of the first order.

But he ought to have the right to express any opinion -- no matter how demonstrably wrong -- without the fear of prosecution. Free speech laws don't exist to protect popular speech (which needs no protection).

Cue the famous Voltaire quotation.

Looger · 02-15-2007, 03:03 PM

yep, our happy brave new world.

honestly, it's not even just the holocaust denial - there are agendas underway to link all kinds of fre speech to this same kind of police state crap.

'hate speech' laws do NOT stop with holocaust denial - they go quite far.

and jailing someone for having the wrong opinion is such a sick twisted idea, it makes me angry just thinking of it.

sick.

Shazam · 02-15-2007, 03:05 PM

Denying the Holocaust is illegal in Germany. You know, they're sorta sensitive about it over there, and they haven't really gotten over it yet.

MarchHare · 02-15-2007, 03:08 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Shazam

Denying the Holocaust is illegal in Germany. You know, they're sorta sensitive about it over there, and they haven't really gotten over it yet.

I'm aware of the law; I just think it's ridiculous.

Germany has gone to extraordinary lengths to atone for the atrocities committed by the Nazis, as they should, but denying the fundamental right to free speech is going too far.

Shazam · 02-15-2007, 03:10 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by MarchHare

I'm aware of the law; I just think it's ridiculous.

Germany has gone to extraordinary lengths to atone for the atrocities committed by the Nazis, as they should, but denying the fundamental right to free speech is going too far.

They don't think it's ridiculous. I suppose that's all that matters.

MarchHare · 02-15-2007, 03:16 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Shazam

They don't think it's ridiculous. I suppose that's all that matters.

Does Germany not abide by the UN Declaration of Human Rights?

Quote:

Article 19.

Everyone has the right to freedom of opinion and expression; this right includes freedom to hold opinions without interference and to seek, receive and impart information and ideas through any media and regardless of frontiers.

http://www.un.org/Overview/rights.html

Burninator · 02-15-2007, 03:32 PM

Now I do not know a lot about this guy but cleary he is widely known for his denying of the holocaust. Now obviously he didn't keep this quiet, cleary he went out and promoted this. I've heard other holocaust deniers and they come accross extremely anti-semetic as I am sure does this guy. So in him purposely denying the holocaust wouldn't that be a hate crime against jews?

RougeUnderoos · 02-15-2007, 03:33 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by MarchHare

Does Germany not abide by the UN Declaration of Human Rights?

http://www.un.org/Overview/rights.html

Technically it looks like they convicted him of "incitement" (or whatever the German word is). To me that means he was, umm, inciting, I guess, which goes beyond free speech.

A thin line. Probably too thin. I don't much like this either, but if he was over there preaching to some yahoos about the holocaust not being true, I guess you could say he's stirring up trouble and inciting hatred. Maybe even violence.

They are obviously pretty sensitive about this stuff.

MarchHare · 02-15-2007, 03:42 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by RougeUnderoos

Technically it looks like they convicted him of "incitement" (or whatever the German word is). To me that means he was, umm, inciting, I guess, which goes beyond free speech.

A thin line. Probably too thin. I don't much like this either, but if he was over there preaching to some yahoos about the holocaust not being true, I guess you could say he's stirring up trouble and inciting hatred. Maybe even violence.

They are obviously pretty sensitive about this stuff.

Was he actively telling people to kill or otherwise harm Jews? If so, I would agree that a jail sentence is warranted. From the linked article, though, it appears that his only "crime" was contending that the Holocaust didn't exist. While his position is, of course, totally indefensible, we don't go around jailing people who deny the theory of evolution, nor should we.

Table 5 · 02-15-2007, 03:43 PM

Yeah, forcing people not think or do things always has a positive effect.

It's only natural that this guy will become even more hardcore. Jailing people for their beliefs will only create more sympathizers and hard-core neo nazis by giving them more to rally around.

The guy's an obvious idiot, but he should not be in jail for this.

RougeUnderoos · 02-15-2007, 03:56 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by MarchHare

Was he actively telling people to kill or otherwise harm Jews? If so, I would agree that a jail sentence is warranted. From the linked article, though, it appears that his only "crime" was contending that the Holocaust didn't exist. While his position is, of course, totally indefensible, we don't go around jailing people who deny the theory of evolution, nor should we.

The article is a little vague. If he's just talking -- to an audience, on TV, writing books saying it didn't happen then no, he shouldn't go to jail.

It's weird. If some fool was going around saying that slavery didn't happen in North America he'd just be considered a harmless crackpot. If this guy is just saying what he believes, I guess he should be considered a harmless crackpot too.

Where do you draw the line though? Isn't denying the holocaust by default also saying the Jews are a sneaky lot and we should keep an eye on them? I guess that's free speech as well, but you can see where this could escalate pretty fast for some people.

Flashpoint · 02-15-2007, 05:03 PM

I deny that he is in jail. I will continue to deny it for the next 5 years.

Then I will deny it ever happened. Free speech doesn't matter because he isn't in jail.

I hope he also believes he isn't in jail. Things will go better for him.

Thunderball · 02-15-2007, 05:06 PM

Whether one believes that the Holocaust didn't happen, was overstated, was exactly as recorded or was understated should not matter. That is their right. Take away free speech, and you are swiftly on your path to recreating that same regime.

I'm disgusted by this... even if the guy is a lunatic.

Flames09 · 02-16-2007, 03:45 AM

How on earth do you deny the Holocaust? .... I wonder what he thinks happened...

Daradon · 02-16-2007, 03:54 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Looger

yep, our happy brave new world.

honestly, it's not even just the holocaust denial - there are agendas underway to link all kinds of fre speech to this same kind of police state crap.

'hate speech' laws do NOT stop with holocaust denial - they go quite far.

and jailing someone for having the wrong opinion is such a sick twisted idea, it makes me angry just thinking of it.

sick.

I used to think you were cool!

Sure nazis may not be a popular group, and sure everyone deserves free speech...

But this guy was warned. And he was doing a lot more than speaking out.

And against something so obvious within the heartland.

Use you head Looger. Free speech is good, when used as free speech.

If you really want to argue, he was taking away others free speech, right to demonstration.

We all do. Louder wins unfortunately. It always will, we're human.

In this case, I agree with volume control.

And again you tell us it's something much more deep. It's AGENDAS...

(THEHIDDENNAZIAGENDATOSUPPORTTHEREVERSEFREESPEECHI NWHICHTOBOLSTERMEGACORPORATENATIONSINTO TIMESOFUNPARARELLEDPROFILWITHWHICHTOENSLAVETHEWORK INGCLASSSOWEWILLHAVETOMAKETACKYPAPERBLINDSSOLDATIK EA...)

Wow, and people though I was biased.

It's not agenda, it's hate.

Looger · 02-16-2007, 06:49 AM

first, they came for the communists, and i didn't say anything because i wasn't a communist.

then, they came for the jews, and i didn't say anything because i wasn't a jew.

then, they came for the catholics, and i didn't say anything because i wasn't a catholic.

finally, they came for me, but no one was left to say anything.

this is a crime against all of us Daradon, and if you don't see this... yikes.

Daradon · 02-16-2007, 08:07 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Looger

first, they came for the communists, and i didn't say anything because i wasn't a communist.

then, they came for the jews, and i didn't say anything because i wasn't a jew.

then, they came for the catholics, and i didn't say anything because i wasn't a catholic.

finally, they came for me, but no one was left to say anything.

this is a crime against all of us Daradon, and if you don't see this... yikes.

I do, and I speak out all the time. Back against the wall.

I just don't see the larger conspiracy. At least yours.

Thanks for using lit against me, appreciate it. I know it. You're not impressing me.

They can take this nazi. If we spoke up for him I guess you'd use another poem.

I'm choosing this side. Doesn't mean I don't like free speech or free thought. Means I don't like this case.

I am old and wise and smart enough to judge independantly wthout setting my moral compass to exclude eveyone else.

Looger · 02-16-2007, 08:13 AM

this isn't some 'conspiracy' Daradon, it's the same old crap that's ALWAYS going on, that is power using an excuse to wedge in more power.

http://thomas.loc.gov/cgi-bin/query/z?c110:H.R.254.IH:

EDIT: link sorta works:

http://thomas.loc.gov/cgi-bin/bdquery/z?d110:h.r.00254:
http://thomas.loc.gov/cgi-bin/query/z?c110:H.R.254:
before the house very soon, this bill, down in the excited states.

very serious implications here, worldwide.

interesting to note that zundel is an american citizen, and was jailed in canada and held without charge in germany for YEARS.

this is the same crap that went on in nazi germany, soviet russia, you name it - and it has absolutely nothing to do with neo-nazis and holocaust denial, a term which is sure tossed around a lot these days...

worth · 02-16-2007, 08:13 AM

I agree with most in this thread. The point is not that he denies the holocaust, the point is why should this be a crime. I'm sure the issue is touchy in Germany, but I don't understand how a person can be jailed for basically disagreeing with the norm. If everyone thinks hes crazy, let him preach on. No ones going to listen to him. I bet if you left it alone, no one here would have ever head of him. It is rediculious.