Severance Packages

[eazyduzzit]

Well the long suspected bomb was finally dropped and i actually feel more relieved than not.


I'll make this as short as i can, I've worked at this place for approx 4 years managing a handfull of staff. The company is basically a branch off of a Houston based one and was started at scratch by me and some former friends/colleagues, it deals with seismic testing and some aspects of drafting when it comes to the well structures up in Ft. Mac that draw oil. For a good chunk of the work, its out of office which demands our employees take leave from their families and travel to the oilsands. I had to deal with long hours and a humongus workload to get it off the ground and profitable so we could employ more staff. I played a key role in all of this and contributed almost a full year of approx 14+ hour days to grow the company. The Houston branch got bought out so management was switched in our office but i managed to keep my job and position. The company basically has the mentality that you are either on the managers side or your your on bad terms and since i stuck up for my employees all of the time and voiced concern and opposition to many proposals, i was usually on bad terms with the current owner. Basically to give some of you an idea, once the management was switched we or should i say they had a tendancy to employ people with little to no experience for cheap, resulting in the few staff that knew what they where doing having to train and basically do two jobs -- their own and the person they where training, which was just too much to handle and in some circumstances dangerous. Yet everyone for the most part put up with it. Management expected way too much out of these staff members and i was always the first to say we can't do this or that won't work. The goals they axpected to achieve in the short term where always long shots. I was always the first to stick up for my employees when it came down to salary as the management lowballed each and every one of them, when i knew they where putting in overtime and coping with huge work loads and deserved much more taking into account the abstance from family (most where also under the industry avarage). Two other employees who played a larger than normal role who spoke up like i did recieved a demotion (over time with the argument of other factors) and eventually let go. Through all this, my colleagues supported me and the company (to my knowloge) knew i was the most vital piece to holding it all together, training and accomplishing the tasks at hand. As well as being one of the few stupid employees who would work this hard and put up with so much crap and so much stress... so this did not happen to me...until recently.


Lots more drama has unfolded in this company but those where just a few examples off the top of my head whthout trying to make this too long. Last week i was demoted from my position of overseeing everything as well as reduced pay. That morning i went in and had a meeting and basically let the owner know everything i felt with reguards to how they where running things, treating people and limiting the companies success with the current antics of management as well as limiting what i could accomplish with the constant un-experienced staff they where hiring. I also put forth my views and my vision for the company and offered him to provide me some constructive criticism. (i have been pretty honest with the owners in the past as i feel honestly is a key to success - having a working enviroment where everyone is on the same page is key IMO). Basically he did not offer much of an argument and instead suggested i take a "week off" and this, approx 1 1/2 years ago was what he said to one of the guys who also helped start this up before he was let go. I basically said we had conflict on everything and simply wanted to go two different directions and this is the beginning of the end for me....i took the week off and today was my first day back. Low and behold i was told i was no longer needed i just smiled and said fair enough and in a final meeting my severance was outlined.


Just wondering if anyone on these boards has ever been in this situation before. (Company terminating employment on un-reasonable grounds resulting in some type of severance package or just a severance package in general.) Other than my lawyer and a few close family members, i have not talked about this with anyone else as most people who would be able to advise me i work with or are in the industry which goes against some laws reguarding signing off on these things.

I've been offered 3 months pay plus extra which will be around $33,000 and full benefits for the first 2 months and half benefits for the next 2 (4 months total). (I didn't want to include numbers i just figured it might help more accurately if some of you know anything regarding this matter)

Basically I either sign off on the severance or i can go to court which will either result in a better settlement or potentially worse. Although my lawyer feels i have good grounds for a case to get more money given the shiere amount of work i have done for this company and the circumstances surrounding my "leave", i don't want the hassle or bother of a proceeding such as that and would rather put it behind me and move on. Not to mention i don't really consider myself as a person who likes to extract the most possible amount.

So if any of you have been in a situation like this;

- What did it entail? 1 month? 3-months severance pay, 5 months?
- How long where you employed?
- Year long benefits? Benefits only for the severance wage time period or longer?
- I know some people get stocks but thats for people who have been in the company ages so i definitely know that is out of my league.

Any help appreciated

Thanks.

Sorry for making this a little longer than expected

[jolinar of malkshor]

Sorry to here easy. I have no advise to give. All I can say is you will find a place where you and your talent will be appreciated and maybe this little time off will give you a good break and relaxation.

Good luck.

[ken0042]

Sounds to me like you are looking for compensation for work done; as opposed to severance. The problem is compensation for 14 hour days, time away from home; is something that should have been negotiated at the time- not now.

If they are offering you 3 months as compensation, I would take the money and run.

The one time I had to go to court for severance; I was awarded 2 weeks' pay for each year of service. And the fact I hadn't negotiated a better salary during my time there was not an issue.

[Slava]

Every case that I've ever dealt with has the compensation based on the time of service. It depends on the employer, but generally it will be a month for every year of service (as an example) or something similar to that.

I'm not a lawyer and certainly not trying to dissuade you from using one (I have some excellent friends who are lawyers!), but you have to remember that any gains through them come with a cost (from a purely financial point of view).

[MolsonInBothHands]

I was always under the impression that two weeks severance was all that is required, and two weeks for every year of service was the norm that most companies followed. Frankly, if I was let go, today, and given two weeks per year, I would dance naked on my front lawn today. That would give me four months salary, and I know I can get a job tomorrow. Right now I am trying to develop software with a couple of other guys that could develop into self employment, but it is quite difficult to produce when you have silly things like a full time job in the way. A nice little severance package would be just what the doctor ordered!

[burn_baby_burn]

I had a similar experience 6 years ago. The differance being, there was no friction with management. The company I worked for was excellent. Sure they took advantage of me by getting me to work ungodly hours. I spent extended periods of time oversea's, extended periods of time out of province (not a transfer but 6 month long business trips living in hotels). Pioneered two new facilities. I started with the company the day I finished college as a summer student. Got sent over sea's that december. Promoted to full time by (I was working full time, but it was under contract) January. Spent four years with the company.

There was lots of rumblings and rumors about upcoming layoffs for various reasons. I was young and single so I didn't stress out about it. They moved the production I was doing over to the main facility in Europe. They told me I was done. I got 6 weeks pay for ever year of full time employment. I received benefits for 6 months. I was given a rental car for 1 month. And I was given free access to some employment service, can't remember the name, that helped you find a job. I didn't really take advantage of the service. They did help me sharpen up my resume and I found a job right away.

All in all I thought they were pretty fair. The company was great to work for. But the one thing I learned was that you don't need to bust your ass for a company. Work hard. But don't miss out on life. Because when the going gets tough. The company will look out for their own best interest not yours.

This is just my opinion. But yeah, I think they are screwing you. Or at least offering you the bare minimum. But if you do take it to court? Will it be worth the hassle?

[mykalberta]

Depends on the details surrounding your termination, whether it was wrongful or not. As an IT person I have currently testified in 5 court cases where the plantiff was asking for more. The average that is requested is 2 month(s)/year of service (keep in mind that I am called in when the termination is not amacable, and mostly to provide testimony about websites visited while at work etc which violates the at-work policy.

MYK

[The Goon]

I had always thought that you get one month's severance pay for each year that you worked at the company.

[longsuffering]

Originally Posted by eazyduzzit

I'll make this as short as i can, I've worked at this place for approx 4 years managing a handfull of staff. The company is basically a branch off of a Houston based one and was started at scratch by me and some former friends/colleagues,

This doesn't make sense to me. You're saying this was YOUR (and your friends) startup but you have no equity and you've been nothing more than an employee. Which is it? Were you employed by the company or did you start it?

I don't know you from Adam and clearly you feel you've been wronged, but I can't help but think we're not hearing the full story - just your side of it.

Sorry.

For what its worth, forget the lawyer, don't threaten legal action ('cause they would probably pull their offer off the table), but calmly and rationally counteroffer their severance offer on the basis of the 'facts' you've outlined. It would help your cause if you could cite examples where you added revenue or brought in new clients, etc to the company. Worse they can do is say 'thats our final offer', in which case I'd shake hands, wish them luck and move on with your life.

[jam26]

Originally Posted by mykalberta

Depends on the details surrounding your termination, whether it was wrongful or not. As an IT person I have currently testified in 5 court cases where the plantiff was asking for more. The average that is requested is 2 month(s)/year of service (keep in mind that I am called in when the termination is not amacable, and mostly to provide testimony about websites visited while at work etc which violates the at-work policy.

MYK

You can do that?! Note: No more Calgarypuck at work.

[CaptainCrunch]

Actually based on what I've read it seems like a fairly reasonable offer, I'd take it and run since going to court will cost you more in fee's then its worth.

[Crazy Flamer]

There is a general rule of thumb that you should receive about 1 month's worth of severance for every year you were with the company. I would tell him you want 5 months pay, settle on 4.

[burn_baby_burn]

Originally Posted by mykalberta

Depends on the details surrounding your termination, whether it was wrongful or not. As an IT person I have currently testified in 5 court cases where the plantiff was asking for more. The average that is requested is 2 month(s)/year of service (keep in mind that I am called in when the termination is not amacable, and mostly to provide testimony about websites visited while at work etc which violates the at-work policy.

MYK

What kind of reaction do the employee's give in court when you testify about the hours they wasted at sites like this, or worse? I have to chuckle.

[Table 5]

severance pay? must be nice.

my field really does suck.

[MagicallyAdept]

Sorry to hear about your situation mate but it sounds like you have built up some good karma and you should get what you deserve.

I on the other hand do not give a flying turd about one of the the companies i work for. When i started many moons ago it was a great place to work, basically the deal was get all your work done by its due date and do whatever you want after. Long lunches, days off, company parties were all had and our bosses joined us, huge bonuses were dolled out at Christmas and no on ever got fired as long as you did what you were hired for. It all changed about 5 yrs ago when an American company took over the reigns. Implementation of their ideals meant no more fun, less money, more hours and strict timekeeping. The smart ones got out then, some got kicked out with a poor severence. I was one of the employees that didn't share my tricks on my job so i was the only one who had certain contacts or understand certain spects of my position. Over the last 5 years me and the few remaining old skoolers have taken an approach of who gives a ****. If we get fired so be it, the company has made less money each year and our parent firm have no idea how the market works over here in the UK. Its a shame but i couldn't care anymore. I am lucky enough to earn extra money in a few other part time jobs otherwise i would have to join the work longer than i sleep brigade. I wish i could have worked here in 70s/80s as the top floor of the office was a licensed pub!! It seems so many companies try to work the life out of their employees and when they are no longer of use, kick them out and replace them with someone younger and cheaper. No loyalty anymore and also no trust between any staff. I have lived by the 'work to live' motto my whole life and i will never change. I am not suited to office work but it was fun at the start meeting people and making deals. When i get fired i will complete my scuba diving instructor training and do that for a living somewhere tropical. Its a sad state of affairs these days with most jobs.

[jamesteterenko]

I have never received a package, but I have seen a couple given to others. The package you describe sounds good. Some companies might give more, and there are definitely some that would give less.

In your situation, I would ask myself the following questions:
* Other than salary and other items accounted for in the package, is there some potential future income that I would have likely got from them in the near future (e.g. a bonus that you get every year or stock options about to vest)?
* Is there anything that my employer has done that will make it difficult for me to find a job in the next three months?
* Do I feel that the extra amount that is likely to be awarded with a court battle likely to worth more than the time, stress, and legal fees of continuing the battle?

If you answered yes to one or more of these, it might be worthwhile to continue. If not, I personally would accept the offer and move on. I'd ask these same questions whether you were leaving on good terms or not. I would also ask them whether or not you feel you were fairly compensated.

It sounds like you feel you were unfairly compensated for the work you did. However, you did agree to the salary and to work the hours you put in. You could have quit or try to negotiate different compensation or work schedule at any time. You didn't. Trying to do so after you no longer work there will not likely get you much. On the positive side, you probably gained great experience in the work you did that should make it much easier for you to find another job.

But, this is just my opinion.

James.

[mykalberta]

Originally Posted by jam26

You can do that?! Note: No more Calgarypuck at work.

Where I work yes. Every website that is visited by every user is recorded and logged for 90 days. We have an external program that goes through the records to keep any *starred* websites for ever.

We also have a program that prevents users from visiting certain sites. It was brought in to save money on Bandwidth costs to prevent streaming audio/media etc with a few exceptions. The company has also used it when they needed cause to fire someone.

MYK

[mykalberta]

Originally Posted by burn_baby_burn

What kind of reaction do the employee's give in court when you testify about the hours they wasted at sites like this, or worse? I have to chuckle.

Most are shocked that we actually record that information. I cant tell how much time is spent, just which sites people go to. I am also called in to testify about data retention, backup frequency, what is and isnt backed up etc. They even sent me to this course at SAIT about publc speaking in courtrooms to prepare me for the first one. I guess i didnt do so bad cause they keep sending me. Where I work there is alot of "movement" on the employee side of things (All canada 30+ terminations 35+new hires /month etc).

MYK

[CrzyCanuck]

A month per year is standard for normal mid-level managers, , unless your over 50, then you can get more. Full beneifts for the full 4 months, bonus, car allowances, and everything else you would normally be paid buring the 4 months should be included. If you were never reimbursed for your overtime from the past, your might as well figure out what they still owe you, and pile that on.

Every case that I have been involved with from the employer side, ( I am in admin) we offer half of the above and hope they accept. Our lawyer always says that most judges lean to the employee. He also advises it is the employees responsibilty to minize his/her loss. In this economy, you cant sit around on your butt, and hope this claim works out. You need to be proactive and look for other work.

Damn these situations suck. Good luck.

[flambers]

I work in the High Tech field and have been through it a few times. My understanding each Province has labour laws which states the amount of severance which is required to be paid. I believe Alberta states its 2 weeks of pay for every year of employment. Of course each company will offer different packages depending on the level of the person.

If you have doubts I recommend for you to look into this further with the appropriate person.

However, it is recommended that a employee should negoitiate his/her severance when they accept a position with a company (if possible). As its becoming very comman for a worker to change jobs many many times in their career.

Hope that helps.....