Big Mac HOF?

[vanisleflamesfan]

Baseball HOF ballot released today. Tony Gwynn and Cal Ripken Jr. should be no-brainers but what do you think the voters will do with Mark McGwire? Will the steroid stuff hurt his chances? Numbers wise, he probably deserves to be there but he will, in some ways, be the first test-case for the 'juiced' generation.

Interesting also is Jose "Snitchy McGee" Canseco on the ballot.

Thoughts?

Big Mac in Cooperstown?

[moon]

I love Big MAc and think that he should go in for sure. His HR numbers are insane if you look at his HR/AB numbers. However the steroids issue will probably keep him out.

If keeping him out would mean that Barry would not get in I might feel okay with it but for some reason I believe that the voters will keep Big Mac out because of steroids and let Barry in.

[JiriHrdina]

Originally Posted by moon

I love Big MAc and think that he should go in for sure. His HR numbers are insane if you look at his HR/AB numbers. However the steroids issue will probably keep him out.

If keeping him out would mean that Barry would not get in I might feel okay with it but for some reason I believe that the voters will keep Big Mac out because of steroids and let Barry in.

Interesting, if anything I see it more possible that the opposite will occur. For whatever reason Mac is a more likeable guy to a lot of people, whereas Bonds is almost universally hated.

I just hope its consistent. Either they both get in, or neither do.

[CaramonLS]

I could see Mac being held out, but Barry getting in.

For the reason Bonds was already a lock for the HOF before he took any roids, where as McGwire needed them to even get consideration.

[moon]

Originally Posted by CaramonLS

I could see Mac being held out, but Barry getting in.

For the reason Bonds was already a lock for the HOF before he took any roids, where as McGwire needed them to even get consideration.

I guess you figure he started taking them his rookie year in which he hit 49 HRs and 118 RBI's.

I know what you are saying in that many people think Bonds was a HOF before the roids but Mcgwire wasn't some bum who went from 15 HR's to 60 either.

[habernac]

I'll be watching this pretty closely. Bonds is different in that he has a terrific batting average , whereas McGwire's is a paltry .263 So what wins out here? McGwire's great personality? I don't know. If I had a choice, neither would go in.

I believe McGwire's chances were hurt at the hearings where he refused to talk about anything that happened in his career.

[nfotiu]

Bonds is a far better player, even if you just look at batting numbers. His stretch between 01-04 is unmatched period with an OPS in the 1.3-1.4 range. McGwire was hitting in the mid-high .200s/.300s for his big HR years, while bonds was hitting in the mid .300s.

Add in the fact that Bonds is a good fielder, and has stolen 500 bases, comparisons aren't even close.

McGwire has a record, that he lost. Bonds really has Wayne Gretzky like numbers. Only member of the 500-500 club, when there are no other members of the 400-400 club.

I'm sure there are many other steroid takers in the HOF, so unless you plan on kicking all of them out, I can't see not having Bonds in there.

You could make a case that Bonds deserves to be there and McGwire is borderline even if you forget their personalities and Steroid allegations.

[socalwingfan]

IMO Mark McGwire should not get in. He was a .263 career hitter and hit .217 with 14 RBI in the postseason. He never won the MVP. He basically hit a lot of homeruns in an era where second baseman were clubbing 25 - 30 homeruns with ease.

[Jiggy_12]

McGuire had a couple big seasons, but a relatively average career. I would say no.

[Sidney Crosby's Hat]

Steroids or not, I don't think McGwire's career is Hall of Fame worthy. Certainly if Roger Maris is not in the Hall, McGwire shouldn't be.

[moon]

His great aren't great but they are good and he was the best HR hitter of his generation and one of the best all-time. He is the all time leader in HR/AB's.

[Antithesis]

Originally Posted by Sidney Crosby's Hat

Steroids or not, I don't think McGwire's career is Hall of Fame worthy. Certainly if Roger Maris is not in the Hall, McGwire shouldn't be.

But McGwire certainly had his share of honors throughout his career - setting a rookie record for single-season home runs being one of the more notable ones.

I truly think that players should be judged based on their play, and McGwire certainly did not do anything wrong at the time he was playing. He and Sammy Sosa were almost single-handedly responsible for the recovery of baseball in the US during the late 90s, which, in my mind, should be enough to offset any ill feelings about alleged steroid use ... after all, they certainly weren't the only ones doing it (yes, and if everyone jumped off a cliff ...)

As much as it pains me to say it, induction of Mark McGwire into Cooperstown must also result in the induction of Barry Bonds as well. In this sense, I agree completely with Grant, consistency is needed. Perhaps the hall of fame should be divided up based on the era the players played in so fans can choose to ignore the presence of guys they disagree with if they choose!

[Flames in 07]

I sincerely hope not.

Baseball is a fun game that has been absolutely destroyed. Mac and Barry are some of the poster boys to represent how awful it has become.

Maybe they should have a separate room in Cooperstown for those who get in with an astrix.

[CaramonLS]

Originally Posted by Sidney Crosby's Hat

Steroids or not, I don't think McGwire's career is Hall of Fame worthy. Certainly if Roger Maris is not in the Hall, McGwire shouldn't be.

http://www.baseball-reference.com/m/mcgwima01.shtml

10th all time in baseball history in SLG%
13th all time in OPS (11th in adjusted [park factors])
12 time All-Star.
7th all time in career Homeruns (with 583), note that no player with over 500 homeruns has ever been kept out of the hall of fame.
1st in HR per AB.

Those numbers were an HOF lock until the steriod issue came up.

[CaramonLS]

Originally Posted by moon

I guess you figure he started taking them his rookie year in which he hit 49 HRs and 118 RBI's.

I know what you are saying in that many people think Bonds was a HOF before the roids but Mcgwire wasn't some bum who went from 15 HR's to 60 either.

Wouldn't be shocked if he started taking them pretty immediately.

Canseco was his teammate as soon as he broke into the Majors.

[Table 5]

I guess the Baseball HOF is all about stats and there is no more consideration for honor, sportmanship and being a good ambassador to the game?

I'm not that big of a baseball fan, but letting him in seems like pretty a horrible model to follow for kids. If Mcquire gets in, you're pretty much telling people "hey, he only cheated some of the time, its cool".

An extreme example. but this is sort of like letting Graham James into the junior hockey hall of fame as a coach. I mean hey, he only fooled around with kids some of the time, he was pretty good the other times right?

[moon]

Originally Posted by Table 5

I guess the Baseball HOF is all about stats and there is no more consideration for honor, sportmanship and being a good ambassador to the game?

Big Mac was a great ambassador of the game during 98 when he and Sammy brought back a ton of fans.

Now he may not be a great ambassador today but during his career he was a great ambassador.

[Sidney Crosby's Hat]

Originally Posted by CaramonLS

http://www.baseball-reference.com/m/mcgwima01.shtml

10th all time in baseball history in SLG%
13th all time in OPS (11th in adjusted [park factors])
12 time All-Star.
7th all time in career Homeruns (with 583), note that no player with over 500 homeruns has ever been kept out of the hall of fame.
1st in HR per AB.

Those numbers were an HOF lock until the steriod issue came up.

How about:

- Two-time American League MVP 1960 & 61 (only 11 have ever won consecutive MVP and all others who are eligible are in the hall of fame)
- 3 world series championships, 7 league championships
- Lifetime .983 fielding pct
- 7-time all-star
- Held the homerun record longer than anyone else in history (35 years).

I'm just saying, if McGwire gets in Roger Maris should get in as well.

[CaramonLS]

Originally Posted by Sidney Crosby's Hat

How about:

- Two-time American League MVP 1960 & 61 (only 11 have ever won consecutive MVP and all others who are eligible are in the hall of fame)
- 3 world series championships, 7 league championships
- Lifetime .983 fielding pct
- 7-time all-star
- Held the homerun record longer than anyone else in history (35 years).

I'm just saying, if McGwire gets in Roger Maris should get in as well.

I think Maris should be in the HOF too, but a) that has no effect on McGwire, and he didn't have the longevity of 99% of the other people in the HOF.

[CaramonLS]

Originally Posted by Table 5

I guess the Baseball HOF is all about stats and there is no more consideration for honor, sportmanship and being a good ambassador to the game?

I'm not that big of a baseball fan, but letting him in seems like pretty a horrible model to follow for kids. If Mcquire gets in, you're pretty much telling people "hey, he only cheated some of the time, its cool".

An extreme example. but this is sort of like letting Graham James into the junior hockey hall of fame as a coach. I mean hey, he only fooled around with kids some of the time, he was pretty good the other times right?

Pretty much. Thats why Ty Cobb is in the HOF. But it does have some standards... I.E. Pete Rose.