Cowards terrorists strike Egypt/France

[transplant99]

The bas**rds are getting busy again. Targetting Israelis on vacation in Egypt.

France

Egypt

[Looger]

funny, i have yet to see a thread here slamming jewish settlers that use children picking olives miles away for target practice.

[Red]

Originally posted by Looger@Oct 8 2004, 10:09 AM
funny, i have yet to see a thread here slamming jewish settlers that use children picking olives miles away for target practice.

Why don't you start one then?

Sounds like an interesting topic.
________
Digital Vaporizers

[HOZ]

Originally posted by Looger@Oct 8 2004, 05:09 PM
funny, i have yet to see a thread here slamming jewish settlers that use children picking olives miles away for target practice.

Like the Palestinians that used a pregnant women and her 2 childen as ones? Or the Palestinian 'Authority' using children as practice bombers on busses in Isreal?


Palestianians are the guilty ones......they had a country and had an idiot p*ss it away

[Looger]

i would to prove a point but... why?

i mean everyone KNOWS that terrorism happens spontaneously, by people that hate us for our wealth and prosperity, right...?

honestly a lot of terror in this world is the direct outgrowth of cause-and-effect. there are some very complex situations but i just don't see the logic of crying about burns after pouring gas onto fires.

israel is a nation that engages in terror, on a grand scale, and the payback comes in the form of attacks on their citizenry.

in a way they didn't 'start it', but in a way they make the palestinians pay for transgressions by egypt and syria in the 40s.

israel needs the lands surrounding it to guarantee egypt and syria don't steamroll it with armour, and the palestinians are in the way.

so, their land was appropriated, even though the percentage of palestinian arabs that raised arms against israel at its inception is far lower than that number is today.

palestinians born under occupation, with airstrikes coming all the time and homes being bulldozed by extremist settlers that honestly plan to kill them all, can get pulled in directions we could never understand or appreciate.

the agreement in 1993 looked workable, but the new wave of terror against israel did not start up right after that.

it started after record-setting settler construction. illegal settlements started going up in places already promised to the palestinians.

israel's political system often requires concessions by likud or labour, the two strong parties, to the extremist right that represent maybe 5% of domestic opinion.

israelis will be paying for that forever now, because the demonization on both sides passed a point of no return sometime in 2000.

[peter12]

Both sides are definitely and equally guilty. Though I think it will be the Israelis that initiate change first. Israel's leaders are a bit more sane than the Palestinian leaders.

[Bertuzzied]

They should just build a Berlin wall and most problems would be solved. A little too easy i guess.

[Looger]

Originally posted by peter12@Oct 8 2004, 05:26 PM
Both sides are definitely and equally guilty. Though I think it will be the Israelis that initiate change first. Israel's leaders are a bit more sane than the Palestinian leaders.

the sabra and chatila massacre presided over by a sane man?

arafat is no saint, and who knows what depths of human savagery he would visit upon israelis had he the power, but one fact remains:

after israeli officers had stood around watching the phalange militia murder thousands of men, women, and children, as well as rape and kill some red cross nuns that were in the wrong place at the wrong time, sharon HANDED OVER hundreds of palestinian men and boys the next day to the perpetrators of the massacre.

in fact that is why he was cashiered in the first place.

sharon is a bad, bad guy, who has gone on record praising that goldberg guy, the american terrorist that killed all those people praying at the hebron mosque.

if he is sane then arafat is in line to be beautified as a saint.

[peter12]

Originally posted by Looger+Oct 8 2004, 11:32 AM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (Looger @ Oct 8 2004, 11:32 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> <!--QuoteBegin-peter12@Oct 8 2004, 05:26 PM
Both sides are definitely and equally guilty. Though I think it will be the Israelis that initiate change first. Israel's leaders are a bit more sane than the Palestinian leaders.

the sabra and chatila massacre presided over by a sane man?

arafat is no saint, and who knows what depths of human savagery he would visit upon israelis had he the power, but one fact remains:

after israeli officers had stood around watching the phalange militia murder thousands of men, women, and children, as well as rape and kill some red cross nuns that were in the wrong place at the wrong time, sharon HANDED OVER hundreds of palestinian men and boys the next day to the perpetrators of the massacre.

in fact that is why he was cashiered in the first place.

sharon is a bad, bad guy, who has gone on record praising that goldberg guy, the american terrorist that killed all those people praying at the hebron mosque.

if he is sane then arafat is in line to be beautified as a saint. [/b][/quote]
I should have clarified... Sharon is a nutcase. But I do think Israeli leadership will start to negotiate first.

Obviously Lebanon was awful, without a doubt the biggest stain on Israels history.

[RedHot25]

Originally posted by peter12@Oct 8 2004, 05:26 PM
Both sides are definitely and equally guilty.

I agree with this.

This is why I get discouraged, though, with the process - for the high up guys (Sharon, Arafat, etc etc etc etc) doing the actual discussion all the way to this messageboard.

Its an argument over which side is "right", or which side is "less wrong" and how the other side is "all wrong" and "not right".

Its ridiculous.

On a lot more serious and larger scale, but its like the current hockey lockout in a weird way - we're right, you're wrong. Come back to us when you realize that.

Its bull.

Propose solutions, not argue who is better and who is right and wrong.

[CaptainCrunch]

Yes both sides are wrong, we know this.

The third faction of this is the fact that the terrorist groups create security groups for themselves by hiding among woman and children themselves. If your going to argue that the Isreali military is perpetrating acts of terror by going after these muts, then you have to argue that the terrorists are commiting acts of double terror by not only trying to kill Isreali civilians, but thier own as well.

Sharon might be a hardcore crazy, but Arafat is far far beyond that. He's recently been talking to school children about killing Jews in wholesale numbers, he's never bought his own terrorist groups in line, he's squirrling away money in mass quatities that should be going to improve the lives of his own people.

Its easy to label the Isreali's as terrorists, but you have to realize that they had 6 million of thier own people turned into air pollution, they've been invaded countless times by nations who wanted nothing more then to drive them into the sea, they've had idiots running into thier buses and stores and killing woman and children in numbers to great to comprehend.

They've tried to trade land for peace repeatedly only to have it blown up in thier faces.

Because of this they've developed a fortress mentality not seen on this planet for 500 years.

Blame the Isreali's all you want, but you need to place just as much or more on the Palestine terror groups that are not interested in peaceful co-existance with a Jewish nation.

I have a great deal of sympathy for the living conditions of the Palestine that dosen't want problems, and just wants peace. I have a great deal of problems with the pigs who are strapping on bombs or sending thier children out to die for thier god.

I don't blame the IDF for defening thier civilians vigourously, nobody else seems to want the job, not the UN, not the States and not us.

[Agamemnon]

Sometimes I hate the 'both sides are wrong' mentality. I find it a cheap way out of actually trying to accurately ascribe a 'guilty' verdict on one 'side' or the other. In reality, it's individuals from each side who really cause the problems, not the majority. I'd wager that less than 1% of the 3.5 million Palestinians who were (or descended from people who were) kicked out of Israel are actively engaged in 'terrorist' operations.

The Jewish people emigrating from all over the world, primarily Russia, were smart, savvy people, and they stuck together (hard). They had a clear objective (creating a unified, Jewish state) and international organizations recruiting and funding settlers. The British, who held governance over the area between WWI/WWII, succumbed to the British-Jewish lobby and allowed fairly large levels of immigration. However, the Brits also had friends in the Ottoman Empire, and didn't want to p*ss them off too much.

The Palestinians, on the other hand, were just a couple million 'backward' Arabs who were unlucky enough to be living right where the new Jewish state was to be built (anyone who argues that the Jews had 'always' been there is out to lunch, maybe <10,000). Their land was sold to Jewish settlers who were paying top dollar to the Arab landowners, who were often completely rich and lived in Damascus, Istanbul, Cairo, etc., and didn't give two sh*ts about the Palestinian people living on the land. The new Israeli people then started kicking Palestinians off their newly and legally (though in many cases highly illegally and bloodily) acquired land.

Thus, you sort of have the roots of the problem. Arguments that this is some sort of inevitable, historical war has no concept of history. This is a brand new war, started in the 20th century. The UN also is very culpable in this conflict, but i'll get into that another time.

[Looger]

Agamemnon, that is a great post.

though i should say - it was 19th century zionism in palestine, and (not coincidentally) anti-semitism in that same area, that helped a lot.

the main core of the conflict is NOT 2000 years old, though many claim it is.

[Agamemnon]

Originally posted by Looger@Oct 8 2004, 06:30 PM
Agamemnon, that is a great post.

though i should say - it was 19th century zionism in palestine, and (not coincidentally) anti-semitism in that same area, that helped a lot.

the main core of the conflict is NOT 2000 years old, though many claim it is.

True, but I believe that the pure # of Jews in the region never topped some 30-50 odd thousand until the real immigration boom in the 20th century.

I forget some of my Arab/Israeli studies classes though

[Lurch]

Sharon might be a hardcore crazy, but Arafat is far far beyond that. He's recently been talking to school children about killing Jews in wholesale numbers, he's never bought his own terrorist groups in line, he's squirrling away money in mass quatities that should be going to improve the lives of his own people.

Wasn't Sharon also accused of squirrelling money away. Also, I would argue that by putting settlements in the 'combat zone' Israel is doing exactly what you accuse the Palestinians of. Both sides turn innocents into pawns.

If you look back on the situation, Israeli's actually starting the terrorist attacks and drove Palestinians off their land in the '50's. Palestinians have proven to be good copycats, not that it is a good trait to copy.

Its easy to label the Isreali's as terrorists, but you have to realize that they had 6 million of thier own people turned into air pollution, they've been invaded countless times by nations who wanted nothing more then to drive them into the sea, they've had idiots running into thier buses and stores and killing woman and children in numbers to great to comprehend.

Now, you wouldn't be excusing reprensible actions with 'consider the situation' arguments, would you!! Not sure if you were one of the posters that suggested that trying to understand a terrorists point of view makes you a terrorist, but that is a pretty common theme from the right. Furthermore, if you look up death tolls from the conflict, it is pretty clear that more innocent Palestinians die than Israeli's. Not that it makes either side right, but it seems to me that if you can excuse Israeli response, you should excuse Palestinian response under the same or worse conditions, no??

Further, you state as fact that Israel is interested in settling this. If I was a Palestinian, and saw Israeli settlements crop up daily, reducing the size of my 'country' all the while, I might just conclude that they were trying to 'push me into the ocean' (as I've seen you suggest from the other side).

My problem with your position is that you equate using a military to attack civilians as somehow different than using a suicide bomber to accomplish the same. I'm positive that if someone was supplying the Palestinians with gunships, tanks, etc. they would no doubt attack in a more conventional manner (not that there would be fewer civilian deaths, but somehow I think to you there would be a difference). However, as Palestine has no 'backer' they are not in a position to behave as a military. If Palestine did the Canadian thing and just caved to Israel, what sort of solution do you suppose Sharon would come up with??

Edit to add link on Sharon corruption:
http://www.cbn.com/CBNNews/Wire/030110f.asp

[transplant99]

I have heard the Al-Queda AND Palestinian leaders call out for the complete and total annihilation of the Jewish race.

I have not heard Sharon claim the elimination of Arabs as a race in any of his speeches.

Huge and undeniable differance between the two.

But BACK TO THE TOPIC....its clear that these groups are getting active again...right before the US elections. Not a coincidence im sure.

[RougeUnderoos]

Originally posted by transplant99@Oct 8 2004, 01:00 PM
But BACK TO THE TOPIC....its clear that these groups are getting active again...right before the US elections. Not a coincidence im sure.

That's bit of a reach, don't you think? It's not like terrorists need the motivation of a US election to act like terrorists.

[Lurch]

I have heard the Al-Queda AND Palestinian leaders call out for the complete and total annihilation of the Jewish race.

I have not heard Sharon claim the elimination of Arabs as a race in any of his speeches.

Well, I guess that makes it true!

The Zionist movement (the extremists in Israel) seems a whole lot like fundamental Islam to me, but maybe thats just me. If you reverse the situation and put Israel in Palestines situation, any bets on whether the extreme Jewish element comes to power? Just like it did in the '50's? Just maybe?

When you're standing with your foot on someone's throat, it's only natural that he tries to kick you in the nuts. It's happened on both sides, and to pretend one is any better than the other is ridiculous.

[Lurch]

But BACK TO THE TOPIC....its clear that these groups are getting active again...right before the US elections. Not a coincidence im sure.

Exactly what would their motivation be in the election? Are they Bush Backers for the help with recruiting, or are they Kerry's Men cuz he'd be weak and let them run amok around the globe?

[transplant99]

Originally posted by Lurch@Oct 8 2004, 03:37 PM


Exactly what would their motivation be in the election? Are they Bush Backers for the help with recruiting, or are they Kerry's Men cuz he'd be weak and let them run amok around the globe?

I have no doubt that the Bin Ladens of the world would like to see Bush re-elected. He is a symbol of hatred for them which started with his father. He makes them seethe....as demonstrated many times over with burnings of his effigy.

Though I may be reading it wrong, but they have a history of disrupting elections and why the US would be any different is beyond me.

Well, I guess that makes it true!

The Zionist movement (the extremists in Israel) seems a whole lot like fundamental Islam to me, but maybe thats just me. If you reverse the situation and put Israel in Palestines situation, any bets on whether the extreme Jewish element comes to power? Just like it did in the '50's? Just maybe?

When you're standing with your foot on someone's throat, it's only natural that he tries to kick you in the nuts. It's happened on both sides, and to pretend one is any better than the other is ridiculous.

I imagine there are some extreme radicals within Israel. Is Sharon one of them, and has he declared that eradicating an entire race is on his agenda? I didn't think so.

I dont deal in "what ifs", I deal wit the reality of the situation. Israel doesnt target innocent civilians for obliteration these days, the Palestinians do. Cant deny that. If they wanted to eliminate them, they already would have as they certainly have that capability.

I know one side has already demonstrated an attempt at peace by giving up land, what has the other side done to try and compromise? Blow up busses and cafes full of inncent civilians...THEY ARE the targets. How anyone can say that this is the same thing as military operations targetting Hamas/Palestinian leaders hiding among civilians is absolutely befuddling to me.