Debate #2

[RougeUnderoos]

So what'd you think?

I have obviously picked a side and I think the side I picked won again.

Cheney's mic getting buried in his coat or behind his hands didn't help him at all. Neither did the hunching over and the strange "I look 30 years older than this guy even though I could be his older brother" thing.

Edwards with that snot-wipe near the end (did y'all notice that?) was kind of funny.

It was a good fight. Best line I thought was from Edwards after Cheney attacked his record and then Edwards listed off several things the Republicans voted against and with the delivery of a real actor he said "these guys voted against Meals on Wheels for seniors". It was a good one, and those oldies vote like hell (but I doubt it changed the minds of old people).

I don't know about Edward's attendance record at work but it seemed Cheney had a good point on the "it sucks" thing, but he could'nt make it stick. Maybe they want to avoid the whole "he doesn't come to work every day" innuendo. They should.

Anyway, I realize how much of a nerd I am right now. I am going to watch the post-game show. I can't vote and the one person reading this who I know will have a vote won't be swayed by me. But it's still fun.

[Lanny_MacDonald]

I think it was as close to a swaoff as you can get. It was a contrast in styles. The experience of Cheney really showed through in how he defended himself and attacked when he did. Edwards' youthful enthusiasm made him a little weak on some points, but he really attacked well. Both took some cheapshots, both showed compassion for the other. It was a great debate and very entertaining.

If I had to pick a side I would pick Cheney because he was so cool and controlled. His delivery was great and his refusal to speak about his daughter was extremely impactful. He didn't score a decisive victory, but I think he did enough to win a split decision.

Having said that, if I had to choose one as a VP, I pick Edwards. I still don't trust Cheney and I think that his health scares me. They talked a lot about "a heartbeat" tonight, well it's Dick Cheney's heartbeat that concerns me the most.

[Flame On]

I agree with some newscasters so far that felt that a draw was as good as a win for Edwards. When I looked at Cheney the name that came to m ind was Ebaneizer. So you can see by that that I thought John did better at not looking like he'd give coal out for christmas. But Cheney is a better debater than Bush for sure.

[Cowperson]

In the last half hour they were competing against "Corner Gas" on the other station so it was tough hanging in.

Both sides probably gave their constituencies what they wanted.

It's really about whether or not they managed to sway undecideds to one side or the other.

Unlike the first debate where there were obvious body language issues for Bush, which probably sank him as much as anything else, I thought there was nothing that stood out in this case, both delivering exactly what you would have expected.

Whereas the universal concensus is that Kerry won the opening debate, even among many Republicans, both sides watching this debate will likely claim they won and both sides will have a point as their candidates weren't flustered and were "on message."

Because Cheney was under a lot of pressure to stand in there and went after Kerry pretty good, scoring the points that Bush didn't, whereas Edwards appeared to be in the business of reinforcing the Kerry talking points, I'd probably give it to Cheney.

Cheney had a lot of ground to make up after the Bush performance last week and I thought he was successful in restoring some equilibrium for his side.

Cowperson

[Lanny_MacDonald]

Shockingly here are the results from MSNBC on who won the debate:

Edwards: 70%

Cheney: 30%

Based on 376,000+ votes.

[nfotiu]

Originally posted by Lanny_MacDonald@Oct 6 2004, 03:27 AM
Shockingly here are the results from MSNBC on who won the debate:

Edwards: 70%

Cheney: 30%

Based on 376,000+ votes.

aww, internet polls can't really be counted for much. We've seen what guys on this forum can do to them!

I was watching more baseball than debating, but from what I saw Edwards looked like he held his own. Cheney is an intimidating guy to go against, that's for sure.

I wonder if it works as a negative to Bush, to have his VP come across as so much more eloquent and intelligent than he is. It provides a pretty obvious contrast.

[arsenal]

I would say Cheney won.
Cheney was cool and controlled. Edwards was more passionate. But it takes more than passion to make a good leader.
I would rather have Cheney as VP. Edwards doesn't have any experience, and it seems like he isn't to interested in showing up for work in the Senate.

I think alot of the reason why there are a lot more people going to register to vote,
may have to do with ulta liberal media. Fanatisism is a dangerous tool. I see more
fanatisism from the democrats and their supporters. Namely Mr. Moore.

From Kerry/Edwards, I don't see anything of substance. Just alot of rhetoric, appeasement, and fluff.
This is not to say that Bush/Cheney don't do it as well, I just see less of it from them.

[Cowperson]

CNN quick vote has 77% for John Edwards, 18% for Cheney and 5% even.

155,000 votes.

Cowperson

[RougeUnderoos]

The post-game I watched for a few minutes called it a draw. I thought Edwards took it but like I said I picked a team long ago.

Somebody mentioned above that a draw would be a win for Edwards. Not quite in my eyes but sure. I thought he kicked Cheney's ass for the first half an hour and then it was a draw for the last 2 segments.

The body language issues were (as Cow said) quite pronounced in the first but not so much this time. But that aspect still didn't go well for Cheney. Maybe it wasn't "body language" that looked bad for Cheney, it was his rather tired and old and heavy looking body that looked bad. He looked like an old man. Maybe I'm reading too much into appearances here but that is not a good thing I don't think. Or it could be a good thing I guess. Maybe more people would rather vote for an old guy who looks experienced rather than a young guy that could pass for 40. The president (of the company you work for or the country you live in) generally seems to be an old guy with grey hair.

[Lanny_MacDonald]

Originally posted by Cowperson@Oct 6 2004, 03:37 AM
CNN quick vote has 77% for John Edwards, 18% for Cheney and 5% even.

155,000 votes.

Cowperson

I just don't believe those numbers. Holy smokes. Cheney has to be the most hated man in America because I thought he was on top of that battle with a slight edge. I expected a 53/47 split for Cheney.

[FlamesAllTheWay]

For the little bit I watched, it looked pretty even too me. Nothing too spectacular or out of the ordinary.

I thought it was hilarious when, part of the question being you couldn't mention the presidential candidate, Edwards mentioned Kerry and the moderator let him know about his slip up. He laughed about it, then he does it again 30 seconds later, heh...

[arsenal]

Cheneys' body language could be taken 2 ways:
1) Tired good 'ol boy, who is on his last leg, and isn't up for the fight.
2) A professor trying to explain to his students the issues and points that are important.

[Bertuzzied]

Originally posted by Lanny_MacDonald+Oct 6 2004, 03:42 AM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (Lanny_MacDonald @ Oct 6 2004, 03:42 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> <!--QuoteBegin-Cowperson@Oct 6 2004, 03:37 AM
CNN quick vote has 77% for John Edwards, 18% for Cheney and 5% even.

155,000 votes.

Cowperson

I just don't believe those numbers. Holy smokes. Cheney has to be the most hated man in America because I thought he was on top of that battle with a slight edge. I expected a 53/47 split for Cheney. [/b][/quote]
Internet polls are sooo accurate? ehhehe
However the Gallup poll done last month that Bush was ahead by 14 points!? and now they are even. Even a Republican on CNN tonite could not believe that poll.

[arsenal]

Originally posted by Lanny_MacDonald+Oct 5 2004, 08:42 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (Lanny_MacDonald @ Oct 5 2004, 08:42 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> <!--QuoteBegin-Cowperson@Oct 6 2004, 03:37 AM
CNN quick vote has 77% for John Edwards, 18% for Cheney and 5% even.

155,000 votes.

Cowperson

I just don't believe those numbers. Holy smokes. Cheney has to be the most hated man in America because I thought he was on top of that battle with a slight edge. I expected a 53/47 split for Cheney. [/b][/quote]
I agree Lanny.
I feel that alot of these people voting on these polls are making decisions based on bad information. That is a scarey proposition.

People hate Cheney becuase of his ties with Halliburton. Why? Whats the big deal?
These people will say that the Iraq war was only about oil, and Cheney's ties with Halliburton are the reason for this.

They are looking at one or 2 issues and making decisions based upon those 2 issues. Instead of looking at the whole picture, and weighing the plus's and minus's of each.

Also, on-line voting polls are scewed. They usually aren't accurate. But it is still
rather scarey to see those numbers.

[Cowperson]

Originally posted by Cowperson@Oct 6 2004, 03:37 AM
CNN quick vote has 77% for John Edwards, 18% for Cheney and 5% even.

155,000 votes.

Cowperson

Aren't all Republicans knuckle-draggin', bango-pickin', gun-totin' hillbillies without a lick of sense needed to run a computer?

That would explain the on-line polls.

Cowperson

[nfotiu]

Speaking of internet fun, has anyone gone to the website Cheney mentioned:

www.factcheck.com

[RougeUnderoos]

Originally posted by arsenal+Oct 5 2004, 09:54 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (arsenal @ Oct 5 2004, 09:54 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'>

I just don't believe those numbers. Holy smokes. Cheney has to be the most hated man in America because I thought he was on top of that battle with a slight edge. I expected a 53/47 split for Cheney.

I agree Lanny.
I feel that alot of these people voting on these polls are making decisions based on bad information. That is a scarey proposition.

People hate Cheney becuase of his ties with Halliburton. Why? Whats the big deal?
These people will say that the Iraq war was only about oil, and Cheney's ties with Halliburton are the reason for this.

They are looking at one or 2 issues and making decisions based upon those 2 issues. Instead of looking at the whole picture, and weighing the plus's and minus's of each.

Also, on-line voting polls are scewed. They usually aren't accurate. But it is still
rather scarey to see those numbers. [/b][/quote]
I agree. Those "numbers" are screwy.

But no more screwy than the number you say people hate Cheney for (one). Hate is a strong word, but there are more reasons that just that one for people to want to be rid of him.

You ask "what's the big deal about Halliburton"? The answer is "Halliburton got a big deal". He's on the payroll. Whether it's all crooked or not (which I happen to think it is), you just have to admit it looks terrible. The unfortunate fact that Halliburton (who still issue Cheney a cheque) has been caught with their hands deep inside the cookie jar doesn't help.

[Flame On]

Originally posted by arsenal+Oct 6 2004, 03:54 AM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (arsenal @ Oct 6 2004, 03:54 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'>

I just don't believe those numbers. Holy smokes. Cheney has to be the most hated man in America because I thought he was on top of that battle with a slight edge. I expected a 53/47 split for Cheney.

I agree Lanny.
I feel that alot of these people voting on these polls are making decisions based on bad information. That is a scarey proposition.

People hate Cheney becuase of his ties with Halliburton. Why? Whats the big deal?
These people will say that the Iraq war was only about oil, and Cheney's ties with Halliburton are the reason for this.

They are looking at one or 2 issues and making decisions based upon those 2 issues. Instead of looking at the whole picture, and weighing the plus's and minus's of each.

Also, on-line voting polls are scewed. They usually aren't accurate. But it is still
rather scarey to see those numbers. [/b][/quote]
Scary for who? Not for people who've decided those (and other!!) issues make Cheney look corrupt, or less than virtuous. It's no more silly than just looking at "flip flopping" and deciding on that either.

[Lanny_MacDonald]

Well Cheney did get caught in a couple of obvious lies, which were pretty transparent. The whole link between Hussein, Iraq and 911 was hammered immediately. Not a good thing to do when you said that exact thing on tape a year ago. Also when he was defending himself and using factcheck.org as a backup, well that was really stupid as well. That is quickly tracked down to be a Rupert Murdock company property. It is also supported by grants from a right wing trust, similar to those given to the Bradley and Heritage Foundations. These hurt his credability IMO.

[nfotiu]

Originally posted by nfotiu@Oct 6 2004, 04:05 AM
Speaking of internet fun, has anyone gone to the website Cheney mentioned:

www.factcheck.com

Sorry to reply to my own post, but what the heck is Cheney talking about with that website. A search on google doesn't even bring up anything. Did he make a verbal typo? Someone must have just taken the opportunity to take the name.