GreenMax Question

[trew]

One of the things that I have been meaning to do, for years, but am just getting around to is getting setup on the GreenMax program from EnMax.

I found their website wasn't completely clear on whether or not Enmax guarantees that the power you purchase actually results in more power being bought from wind producers and less from fossil fuels.

I gave them a call, and the EnMax rep seemed to indicate that GreenMax was more of a soft fund, to "promote" wind power development and not really a guarantee that any specific amount of energy would ultimately be purchased from renewable sources.

I say "seemed to indicate" because this customer representative had to ask someone else for information, and we had to go back and forth a bit, before she eventually answered my question. (As a side question, is Enmax using offshore call centers?? operator had an Indian accent and I didn't feel like we communicated very easily.)

Failing intellegent information from EnMax themselves... Anyone here know anything about the Greenmax program?

Everything else I read about "Green Energy (R)" programs indicates that there should be some form of a guarantee to purchase a fixed amount of kWh and displace fossil fuel purchases.

So... Is GreenMax a true Green Energy program? or is it a scham?

My guess, and hope, is that it is a true Green Energy program, and the rep I spoke to was just out to lunch... in Mumbai.

[Tron_fdc]

The rep is correct. There is no "line" per se that runs from wind turbines down south to the Enmax distribution center and gets directed to your house.

The way the power industry in Alberta works is as follows:

Electricity generators (Power producers) generate power, and then sell it off by bidding the cost into the power pool* at either a set cost, or at market price.

The power pool then determines where load is required, and distributes it accordingly to Enmax or Epcor dist. centers, where it in turn is sent to your house.

The way the Greenmax program works is that it charges a premium (I believe it is approx $0.02/kWh on your bill) that allows wind producers to be more cost effective. Wind generation is not as efficient as say coal or gas (it depends on the amount of hours the wind blows to turn a turbine), so it requires a higher sale price in order to be profitable. Most wind plants that I've come across use a formula of 35% up-time @ $0.07/kWh to be profitable. Not sure where power is now, but I'm fairly certain that it's above 7 cents, which would make wind gen feasible without sigining up for the program.

*I believe the Power Pool has since changed their name, but I can't remember what it is.

[trew]

Originally Posted by Tron_fdc

The rep is correct. There is no "line" per se that runs from wind turbines down south to the Enmax distribution center and gets directed to your house.

The way the power industry in Alberta works is as follows:

Electricity generators (Power producers) generate power, and then sell it off by bidding the cost into the power pool* at either a set cost, or at market price.

The power pool then determines where load is required, and distributes it accordingly to Enmax or Epcor dist. centers, where it in turn is sent to your house.

The way the Greenmax program works is that it charges a premium (I believe it is approx $0.02/kWh on your bill) that allows wind producers to be more cost effective. Wind generation is not as efficient as say coal or gas (it depends on the amount of hours the wind blows to turn a turbine), so it requires a higher sale price in order to be profitable. Most wind plants that I've come across use a formula of 35% up-time @ $0.07/kWh to be profitable. Not sure where power is now, but I'm fairly certain that it's above 7 cents, which would make wind gen feasible without sigining up for the program.

*I believe the Power Pool has since changed their name, but I can't remember what it is.

I understand that the transmission of the power may not end up in the Calgary market, and I can get my head around the power pool and grid concepts.

What I still don't understand, though, is if there is a direct corolation between consumer investment in greenmax and an increase of windpower provided to the powerpool. I know they added 12 windmills to offset the C-train usage, would GreenMax have the same impact, ie/ would they eventually add another 20 mills if 6000 more poeple signed up for the program? or will it just be a blank cheque subsidy that may or may not result in more windpower displacing fossil fuel power?

[ken0042]

The way I understood it is this. Keep in mind this is just from reading their propaganda, and my interpretation, so take it for what its worth.

Let's say they have windmills producing 100 megawatt/hours of power per month. Calgary Transit "buys" 20 MW/h so they have 80 left to sell to other customers. As long as they don't sell more than 80 MW/h to everybody else, then technically they are selling you green power. As the number starts to go over 80 MW/h they take the money that you and Calgary Transit has spent over and above regular electricity prices to buy themselves more windmills. Now they have 120 MW/h to sell which means another 40 customers at 500 KW/h per month.

Which to me is why they don't convert your entire bill to Greenmax, you buy blocks of it to ensure they aren't overselling it one month.

[Crazy Flamer]

I used to work for Enmax. In fact, they are still the biggest client for the compnay I work for. The premise behind Greenmax is this. It guarantees that the equivalent of 100% of your electricity use will be produced by green energy and dispersed into the power pool. For instance, if you use 50,000 Kwh per year and you are on Greenmax, that ensures that 50,000 kwh will be produced by green energy and put back into the power pool.

Greenmax is also free if you sign up for EasyMax. If you need to know more about that just ask I will claify. Hope this helps.

[Tron_fdc]

Originally Posted by trew

I understand that the transmission of the power may not end up in the Calgary market, and I can get my head around the power pool and grid concepts.

What I still don't understand, though, is if there is a direct corolation between consumer investment in greenmax and an increase of windpower provided to the powerpool. I know they added 12 windmills to offset the C-train usage, would GreenMax have the same impact, ie/ would they eventually add another 20 mills if 6000 more poeple signed up for GreenMax?

You would have to ask Enmax that. I'm sure it would be in their business plan somewhere, although I don't know if the joe public would be privy to that info.

I'm not sure if Enmax actually added 12 turbines to cover the c-train requirements......moreso what they did was sign a guaranteed contract (with the company developing the site) saying they would pay market price, at a minimum of 7 cents, over a set amount of years to help cover capital costs or to allow the producer to qualify for financing. In the case of Enmax their deal was with Visionquest, who they just hppened to own. It's pretty easy to sign contracts with yourself......

So yes, indirectly the C-train contract is responsible for the turbines. What they do however, is have other large generation sites that supply power, and allow the wind turbines to bid into the grid at a much higher profit level than the contract is for, when both generators (say coal and wind) are running.

We have been working on a wind-gen site for 4 years now, and the semantics are extremely complicated. Large retailers have the upper hand on us small guys for a number of reasons, and one of them is the generation capacity they already have, and the marketing budgets they can utilize. The average Calgarian seems to think they are subsidizing green power by getting into Greenmax, when in reality it's the same as saying we're subsidizing federal road building in Alberta by paying federal income tax. Indirectly yes, it contributes. Directly, I would say you're better off buying stock in Canadian Hydro or Visionquest wit the money you would spend on a subsidy for Enmax. Even though Visionquest is owned by Enmax, at least you know you're directly subsidizing wind generation.

edit for clarity, although I've had 2 pints and still make no sense

[trew]

Originally Posted by Crazy Flamer

I used to work for Enmax. In fact, they are still the biggest client for the compnay I work for. The premise behind Greenmax is this. It guarantees that the equivalent of 100% of your electricity use will be produced by green energy and dispersed into the power pool. For instance, if you use 50,000 Kwh per year and you are on Greenmax, that ensures that 50,000 kwh will be produced by green energy and put back into the power pool.

Greenmax is also free if you sign up for EasyMax. If you need to know more about that just ask I will claify. Hope this helps.

Thanks, that answers my question.

Not a bad way to buy back some of the karma blown out the tailpipe of your car. Especially if the EasyMax program works for you.

[arsenal]

Yah, Crazy Flamer is right. All greenmax garantees is that the amount of electricity you use is generated and placed in the pool from renewable resources.

Crazy Flamer: How is GreenMax free through signing up through EasyMax?

[trew]

Originally Posted by Tron_fdc

In the case of Enmax their deal was with Visionquest, who they just hppened to own. It's pretty easy to sign contracts with yourself......

So yes, indirectly the C-train contract is responsible for the turbines. What they do however, is have other large generation sites that supply power, and allow the wind turbines to bid into the grid at a much higher profit level than the contract is for, when both generators (say coal and wind) are running.

We have been working on a wind-gen site for 4 years now, and the semantics are extremely complicated. Large retailers have the upper hand on us small guys for a number of reasons, and one of them is the generation capacity they already have, and the marketing budgets they can utilize. The average Calgarian seems to think they are subsidizing green power by getting into Greenmax, when in reality it's the same as saying we're subsidizing federal road building in Alberta by paying federal income tax. Indirectly yes, it contributes. Directly, I would say you're better off buying stock in Canadian Hydro or Visionquest wit the money you would spend on a subsidy for Enmax. Even though Visionquest is owned by Enmax, at least you know you're directly subsidizing wind generation.

edit for clarity, although I've had 2 pints and still make no sense

I think it's TransAlta who owns VisionQuest, not EnMax. At least that's whose name appears on the VisionQuest website. Not sure if investing in TransAlta would help with wind generation initiaves, though, as they mostly burn an assload of Coal to keep the lights on.

Also found this on the VisionQuest Site:

http://www.visionquestwind.com/produ...21&id=products

Sounds like there is a direct relationship between green energy purchased and that produced. (Well at least from a marketing stand point, the reality of the situation might be different).

Doing a Google, I also see a "VisionQuest Enterprises" who are building something called the "speed ball", a mini windmill for use in residential and commercial sites, as well as to recapture wind energy from large trucks and RV's while in motion.

(Perhaps they are also working on a new model, on a stick, that little kids can run around with. Always figured that, if you could capture the energy of a three year old for one day, you could probably power a washing machine for, like, 10 years.)

The two companies operate in Western Canada, in windpower, but don't seem to have anything to do with one another?? (at least not as far as I can tell). I thought trade name registration existed to stop stuff like this from happening.