Alberta = Jobsville

[habernac]

Too bad you have to move up to Ft McMurray, though. 15 years was enough for me. I'm going back for a Thanksgiving wedding there, I probably won't even recognize the place from 4 years ago.

[Tron_fdc]

Alberta (Canada, really) should look at bringing in labour from overseas on a temp basis. You can get workers for half the price, and when the shortage is solved send 'em home.

I've been through Asia and this is quite common. In Korea, if you have menial, low paying work for someone, you can get a license to bring in workers from India. It's pretty popular, and according to the government a win win for both sides. The import workers make money and gather skills that would never be available to them in their home country, and the employer has access to an unlimited labour supply (as well as saves money by paying lower wages).

[CaramonLS]

Originally posted by plett22@Sep 22 2004, 03:58 PM
Alberta (Canada, really) should look at bringing in labour from overseas on a temp basis. You can get workers for half the price, and when the shortage is solved send 'em home.

I've been through Asia and this is quite common. In Korea, if you have menial, low paying work for someone, you can get a license to bring in workers from India. It's pretty popular, and according to the government a win win for both sides. The import workers make money and gather skills that would never be available to them in their home country, and the employer has access to an unlimited labour supply (as well as saves money by paying lower wages).

To be honest I think that would hurt Alberta in the long run.

We pay _____ people to come over to Calgary, and work on the Oil sands, but the people do not live hear. The people that Benifit are the companies that employ the cheap labourers, but when it comes to spending money back into the Economy - it would probably go back to the native country, thus the money is leaving Canada.

Sure the profit margin of said company would be higher, therefore we could tax em to death, but putting money in the hands of people that live here is better for the Economy. In the theory of Economics, most economists beleive that for every dollar a working class citizen spends it works through the economy 10-fold.

Since Oil is a limited resource it would be better to wait for more Canadian Labour.

[habernac]

yep, lots of Canadians around to take those jobs. And they will stay here and spend the money they earn in the Canadian economy.

[Tron_fdc]

Originally posted by habernac@Sep 22 2004, 04:20 PM
yep, lots of Canadians around to take those jobs. And they will stay here and spend the money they earn in the Canadian economy.

So why is there a shortage then??

[CaramonLS]

Originally posted by plett22+Sep 22 2004, 04:24 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (plett22 @ Sep 22 2004, 04:24 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> <!--QuoteBegin-habernac@Sep 22 2004, 04:20 PM
yep, lots of Canadians around to take those jobs. And they will stay here and spend the money they earn in the Canadian economy.

So why is there a shortage then?? [/b][/quote]
Cuz the newfies are getting EI while they take seasonal Jobs!

[MrMastodonFarm]

Originally posted by CaramonLS@Sep 22 2004, 10:33 AM
Cuz the newfies are getting EI while they take seasonal Jobs!

Ding Ding Ding, we have a winner.

[Wookie]

Originally posted by CaramonLS+Sep 22 2004, 10:33 AM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (CaramonLS @ Sep 22 2004, 10:33 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'>

So why is there a shortage then??

Cuz the newfies are getting EI while they take seasonal Jobs! [/b][/quote]
Ughh I was to slow..

[Tron_fdc]

Originally posted by CaramonLS+Sep 22 2004, 04:33 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (CaramonLS @ Sep 22 2004, 04:33 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'>

So why is there a shortage then??

Cuz the newfies are getting EI while they take seasonal Jobs! [/b][/quote]
Fair enough.

So what would you rather have:

- someone you pay a full wage to that is going to go back on UI after 6 months of work or,

- someone you can pay half the wage to, that you can send home when work is completed?

Language won't factor in either, as neither speak Enlish anyways, b'y

[CaramonLS]

Originally posted by plett22+Sep 22 2004, 04:46 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (plett22 @ Sep 22 2004, 04:46 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'>

Cuz the newfies are getting EI while they take seasonal Jobs!

Fair enough.

So what would you rather have:

- someone you pay a full wage to that is going to go back on UI after 6 months of work or,

- someone you can pay half the wage to, that you can send home when work is completed?

Language won't factor in either, as neither speak Enlish anyways, b'y [/b][/quote]
For a Business Owner I would opt for the cheap labour of course.

But speaking as someone who is not a Business owner and I want the country to get the most benifit out of the oil sands project I would much rather employ people who are going to spend the money here.

I would prefer not to outsource too much... i have a hard time feeling sorry for businesses who have to pay a couple extra dollars an hour to local people so they only have a 299 million dollar profit margin rather than a 300 million dollar profit margin.

Now citizens of another country who plan to immigrate here or start a new life here I would not have a problem giving the jobs to.

[Bring_Back_Shantz]

Yeah, you guys are kinda missing the point. It isn't midless labourers that they are short on. They'll never have trouble finding guys to spin wrenches and lift heavy things, it's the skilled jobs that they are comming up short on. In projects like these, they need huge numbers of welders, pipe fitters, and other jobs, that the average joe isn't qualified, or certified to do. If it was just a matter of having a bunch of high paying jobs that require no skill, there wouldn't be a problem with homeless people in Alberta, that is not the case however.

[Bring_Back_Shantz]

Originally posted by CaramonLS+Sep 22 2004, 10:58 AM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (CaramonLS @ Sep 22 2004, 10:58 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'>

Fair enough.

So what would you rather have:

- someone you pay a full wage to that is going to go back on UI after 6 months of work or,

- someone you can pay half the wage to, that you can send home when work is completed?

Language won't factor in either, as neither speak Enlish anyways, b'y

For a Business Owner I would opt for the cheap labour of course.

But speaking as someone who is not a Business owner and I want the country to get the most benifit out of the oil sands project I would much rather employ people who are going to spend the money here.

I would prefer not to outsource too much... i have a hard time feeling sorry for businesses who have to pay a couple extra dollars an hour to local people so they only have a 299 million dollar profit margin rather than a 300 million dollar profit margin.

Now citizens of another country who plan to immigrate here or start a new life here I would not have a problem giving the jobs to. [/b][/quote]
Dude, it's not a matter of a million dollars. The major cause of Syncrudes ongoing cost overruns on their expansion is due to labour shortages for skilled workers. Yes they have had other problems, but the point is that they, along with other major oil sands projects are overrunning by the BILLIONS of dollars, not one or two million. Sure, we can keep the money in Canada by not hiring foreign workers, but that may mean that the projects never go ahead and we see no benefit.

You have to look at both sides before you decide that it is just a greedy company trying to save a million bucks, these are real problems for the company, the province, and the country as a whole.

[CaramonLS]

Shantz what is it going to do?

Its going to get the oil out of the ground faster, drivng down oil prices, flooding the market with oil.

Oil is NOT a renewable resource FYI and it looks more and more like we are going to run out of this resource pretty damned soon.

I am not going to waste money so Oil can be gotten out of the ground faster with little benifit to our province - sure we can outsource all the labour we want to, but at a certain point, its not the people that are benifiting from this, its the oil companies.

Sorry these companies can put their profits on hold for a little while and that oil can stay in the ground a little longer.

[Tron_fdc]

Originally posted by Bring_Back_Shantz@Sep 22 2004, 05:34 PM
Yeah, you guys are kinda missing the point. It isn't midless labourers that they are short on. They'll never have trouble finding guys to spin wrenches and lift heavy things, it's the skilled jobs that they are comming up short on. In projects like these, they need huge numbers of welders, pipe fitters, and other jobs, that the average joe isn't qualified, or certified to do. If it was just a matter of having a bunch of high paying jobs that require no skill, there wouldn't be a problem with homeless people in Alberta, that is not the case however.

Unskilled labour aside, I'm sure there are plenty of disgruntled welders in Pakistan that would love the opportunity to come over here and work, even if it was on a temp basis. I'm thinking this idea would apply to more than just Joe wrench slinger.

There's gotta be a few pipefitters and machinists in Iraq kicking around somewhere.... maybe Lanny knows where they are!!

[Tron_fdc]

Originally posted by CaramonLS@Sep 22 2004, 05:59 PM
Shantz what is it going to do?

Its going to get the oil out of the ground faster, drivng down oil prices, flooding the market with oil.

Oil is NOT a renewable resource FYI and it looks more and more like we are going to run out of this resource pretty damned soon.

I am not going to waste money so Oil can be gotten out of the ground faster with little benifit to our province - sure we can outsource all the labour we want to, but at a certain point, its not the people that are benifiting from this, its the oil companies.

Sorry these companies can put their profits on hold for a little while and that oil can stay in the ground a little longer.

I don't think King Ralph is on the same page as this, though. He seems intent on pillaging this resource as fast as possible. His track record has shown that he is on side with large corporations and not public opinion on many occasions, so it's not like he's going to put things on hold so our grandkids can have oil instead of "slaying the deficit dragon" or whatever the hell it was he said.

I don't like import workers either, but it has been proven to work just fine in other countries.

[Bring_Back_Shantz]

Originally posted by CaramonLS@Sep 22 2004, 11:59 AM
Shantz what is it going to do?

Its going to get the oil out of the ground faster, drivng down oil prices, flooding the market with oil.

Oil is NOT a renewable resource FYI and it looks more and more like we are going to run out of this resource pretty damned soon.

I am not going to waste money so Oil can be gotten out of the ground faster with little benifit to our province - sure we can outsource all the labour we want to, but at a certain point, its not the people that are benifiting from this, its the oil companies.

Sorry these companies can put their profits on hold for a little while and that oil can stay in the ground a little longer.

A billion dollar project is a billion dollar project. We can do it now or in 10 years, but we still won't have the people in alberta to do the job, at least unless we somehow magically persuade thousands of people to go into the needed trades.

And man do I love it when people are stupid enought to say things like "It's the oil companies that are benefiting not the people".

What? Are oil companies bit robots that devour money and do nothing with it? Let's see, Oil company makes money.....Invests money in other big Billion dollar projects...employs thousands of people, both from Alberta, and otherwise.

Guess what man, Oil companies, and the contractors that they use, employ THOUSANDS of people in Calgary alone, not to mention the other Thousands that they employ in the rest of he province, and pretty much the entire city of Ft. Mac. Big news flash for you man, a very large portion of the province ARE the oil companies.

Edit: BTW, just for clarification, would I rather see these jobs, stay in Alberta rather than have to hire foreign workers, Sure, but the only way we are going to do that is to creat programs that encourage people to go into the badly needed trades, something that most of the large oil companies are doing. Untill those programs have their intended effect, we're gonna have to bring in some outsiders if we want to complete these huge projects.

[Bring_Back_Shantz]

Originally posted by CaramonLS@Sep 22 2004, 11:59 AM
Shantz what is it going to do?

Its going to get the oil out of the ground faster, drivng down oil prices, flooding the market with oil.

Oil is NOT a renewable resource FYI and it looks more and more like we are going to run out of this resource pretty damned soon.

I am not going to waste money so Oil can be gotten out of the ground faster with little benifit to our province - sure we can outsource all the labour we want to, but at a certain point, its not the people that are benifiting from this, its the oil companies.

Sorry these companies can put their profits on hold for a little while and that oil can stay in the ground a little longer.

BTW dude, an extra 100 000 bbls/d from the oil sands, hell an extra million is not gonna flood the market and bring oil prices down.

Don't try to argue the economics of oil and gas unless if you don't have the slightest knowledge of how it works.

[CaramonLS]

Originally posted by Bring_Back_Shantz+Sep 22 2004, 10:04 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (Bring_Back_Shantz @ Sep 22 2004, 10:04 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> <!--QuoteBegin-CaramonLS@Sep 22 2004, 11:59 AM
Shantz what is it going to do?#

Its going to get the oil out of the ground faster, drivng down oil prices, flooding the market with oil.

Oil is NOT a renewable resource FYI and it looks more and more like we are going to run out of this resource pretty damned soon.

I am not going to waste money so Oil can be gotten out of the ground faster with little benifit to our province - sure we can outsource all the labour we want to, but at a certain point, its not the people that are benifiting from this, its the oil companies.

Sorry these companies can put their profits on hold for a little while and that oil can stay in the ground a little longer.

A billion dollar project is a billion dollar project. We can do it now or in 10 years, but we still won't have the people in alberta to do the job, at least unless we somehow magically persuade thousands of people to go into the needed trades.

And man do I love it when people are stupid enought to say things like "It's the oil companies that are benefiting not the people".

What? Are oil companies bit robots that devour money and do nothing with it? Let's see, Oil company makes money.....Invests money in other big Billion dollar projects...employs thousands of people, both from Alberta, and otherwise.

Guess what man, Oil companies, and the contractors that they use, employ THOUSANDS of people in Calgary alone, not to mention the other Thousands that they employ in the rest of he province, and pretty much the entire city of Ft. Mac. Big news flash for you man, a very large portion of the province ARE the oil companies.

Edit: BTW, just for clarification, would I rather see these jobs, stay in Alberta rather than have to hire foreign workers, Sure, but the only way we are going to do that is to creat programs that encourage people to go into the badly needed trades, something that most of the large oil companies are doing. Untill those programs have their intended effect, we're gonna have to bring in some outsiders if we want to complete these huge projects. [/b][/quote]
Ahh the Principles of Supply Side Economics or Reaganonmics Shantz.

Ahh the pure intentions of Oil companies whose only goal is to expand and create more jobs for the willing public and to spread the wealth around to everyone.

What? Are oil companies bit robots that devour money and do nothing with it? Let's see, Oil company makes money.....Invests money in other big Billion dollar projects...employs thousands of people, both from Alberta, and otherwise.

So Oil companies are constantly expanding helping us out non-stop?

First and foremost they are a business and they only do what is good for their business and bottom line. When you get right down to it, large corperations are cold heartless money making machines. THIS is not to say I don't support large corperations because they certainly have their role in society.

Also I did not mean to imply that Oil Companies are the only benificiaries of the Oil we extract from the ground, but hiring cheap foriegn labor to suck this oil out of the ground as fast as humanly possible is NOT the best Solution for the PROVINCE. Sure the province will make some extra money right away but in the long run we only have a limited amount of oil and limited revenues from it.

Also don't try to argue economics with me unless you understand the basic principals of supply and demand. More Supply is going to equal a drop in the prices, I can draw you a graph if you like.

[Vulcan]

Originally posted by plett22+Sep 22 2004, 10:59 AM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (plett22 @ Sep 22 2004, 10:59 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> <!--QuoteBegin-Bring_Back_Shantz@Sep 22 2004, 05:34 PM
Yeah, you guys are kinda missing the point. It isn't midless labourers that they are short on. They'll never have trouble finding guys to spin wrenches and lift heavy things, it's the skilled jobs that they are comming up short on. In projects like these, they need huge numbers of welders, pipe fitters, and other jobs, that the average joe isn't qualified, or certified to do. If it was just a matter of having a bunch of high paying jobs that require no skill, there wouldn't be a problem with homeless people in Alberta, that is not the case however.

Unskilled labour aside, I'm sure there are plenty of disgruntled welders in Pakistan that would love the opportunity to come over here and work, even if it was on a temp basis. I'm thinking this idea would apply to more than just Joe wrench slinger.

There's gotta be a few pipefitters and machinists in Iraq kicking around somewhere.... maybe Lanny knows where they are!! [/b][/quote]
As a tradesman I'm pretty insulted by your attitude. I am sure there are plenty of digruntled office clerks in Pakistan who would be happy to come over here and do your work also. In my lone experience of working at Syncrude we had tradesmen come in from across Canada and the United States. The unions are international and yes they are very active with contractors and goverment[schools such as Sait and Nait] in training and upgrading. Oil sands contractors require special tests and certification above a regular tradesman ticket in order to work there, so I don't think they want to hire SE Asian farmers to do my job.

[Bring_Back_Shantz]

Originally posted by CaramonLS+Sep 22 2004, 05:06 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (CaramonLS @ Sep 22 2004, 05:06 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'>

A billion dollar project is a billion dollar project. We can do it now or in 10 years, but we still won't have the people in alberta to do the job, at least unless we somehow magically persuade thousands of people to go into the needed trades.

And man do I love it when people are stupid enought to say things like "It's the oil companies that are benefiting not the people".

What? Are oil companies bit robots that devour money and do nothing with it? Let's see, Oil company makes money.....Invests money in other big Billion dollar projects...employs thousands of people, both from Alberta, and otherwise.

Guess what man, Oil companies, and the contractors that they use, employ THOUSANDS of people in Calgary alone, not to mention the other Thousands that they employ in the rest of he province, and pretty much the entire city of Ft. Mac. Big news flash for you man, a very large portion of the province ARE the oil companies.

Edit: BTW, just for clarification, would I rather see these jobs, stay in Alberta rather than have to hire foreign workers, Sure, but the only way we are going to do that is to creat programs that encourage people to go into the badly needed trades, something that most of the large oil companies are doing. Untill those programs have their intended effect, we're gonna have to bring in some outsiders if we want to complete these huge projects.

Ahh the Principles of Supply Side Economics or Reaganonmics Shantz.

Ahh the pure intentions of Oil companies whose only goal is to expand and create more jobs for the willing public and to spread the wealth around to everyone.

What? Are oil companies bit robots that devour money and do nothing with it? Let's see, Oil company makes money.....Invests money in other big Billion dollar projects...employs thousands of people, both from Alberta, and otherwise.

So Oil companies are constantly expanding helping us out non-stop?

First and foremost they are a business and they only do what is good for their business and bottom line. When you get right down to it, large corperations are cold heartless money making machines. THIS is not to say I don't support large corperations because they certainly have their role in society.

Also I did not mean to imply that Oil Companies are the only benificiaries of the Oil we extract from the ground, but hiring cheap foriegn labor to suck this oil out of the ground as fast as humanly possible is NOT the best Solution for the PROVINCE. Sure the province will make some extra money right away but in the long run we only have a limited amount of oil and limited revenues from it.

Also don't try to argue economics with me unless you understand the basic principals of supply and demand. More Supply is going to equal a drop in the prices, I can draw you a graph if you like. [/b][/quote]
Okay, let's do a little math.

Is a .001% increase in supply going to have a huge impact on prices? Not bloody likely.

Dude, you completely missed my point. The citizens of alberta ARE THE OIL COMPANY. Good business for oil companies = good business for a huge portion of the province.

And the issue isn't cheap foreign labour you fool. The issue is lack of labour.

You wanna wax about supply and demand. Okay, here's a bit you may know. Lack of supply = increase in prices = cost overruns for companies. But id does nothing to help the shortage of needed workers, hence, the oil companies are forced to pay a premium for foreign or out of province workers, if you knew anything about the situation you would know that the companies actually prefer using local labour because it costs them more to bring in foreigners.