Owen Hargreaves underappreciated by English fans

[Ranchlander]

http://soccer.sportsnet.tsn.ca/news_story/?id=204

This kid really astonishes me. Its amazing how many people worldwide (pretty much in every country but the US and Canada) play soccer, and how a little kid from Calgary can be on the field with the likes of Beckham, Owen, Lampard, Gerrard, etc etc.

[StoneCole]

I hear he is not well-liked amongst English soccer fans. Many of them would prefer a true countryman on the team in his spot. He is an amazing player no doubt, but I still don't like him. Could've played a huge role in the success of Canada's World Cup team. Sure this way he has a chance to win the world cup, but he could've been a Canadian hero.

[Jagger]

A minority of English fans booed his arrival as substitute against Paraquay which, as a Englishman, I found disgusting. You never boo one of your own players.

Fact is, Hargreaves has dual nationality, as do all of my kids. He says that he considers himself to be English and Canadian as he spent a lot of time in England and grew up with British parents.

The problem for Hargreaves is a few things. He's a defensive midfielder which is an underappreciated position in the first place. Then Hargreaves usually comes on as a late substitute with little time to impress. He is there to shut the opposition down. Hardly the type of play to inspire fans.

[jroc]

like someone said, a kid that grew up in calgary playing with the likes of Beckham, Gerrard, Owen, Cole, Rooney... can you even imagine what this kid looked like on the field for his U18 or U16 team here in Calgary! holy man he must have embarrased absolutely everyone

[Hakan]

A friend of mine played against him in Calgary. I believe he played for the Chinooks. Anyway, he said that Heargraves was clearly the best player on the field. He didn't dominate every game persay but there was no question he was the best in the league.

[azzarish]

I've heard people say that Hargreaves sold Canada out. I think that's unfair, he went to Europe to persue his dreams. Let's face it Canada are not going to be world beaters in soccer anytime soon and it's not like basketball (Steve Nash) where he could still be close to home and play the sport he loved, and more importantly win things. Look the amount of trophies he has won with Bayern Munich. What would he have won staying here in Canada? And besides how much were the sporting academies or goverment doing here to promote soccer or pump money in to the game for a team in the future to flourish, not much. He realized he had talent and he wanted to utilize it. The only thing I admit is that a country needs a role model to become interested in a sport, someone like a Gretzky could do wonders for soccer here.

What the English fans are doing to him right now is a kick in the teeth to him deciding to play for England. I don't think it's the fact that he has dual nationality it's the fact that he's in the sqaud when they could have taken another player. A couple of days ago Eriksson sent Hargreaves out to face the press, just like other England players have been doing in the World Cup. Hargreaves came out and said that the English fans don't see him week in and week out so that don't know his capabilities.

[browna]

I wonder if his "booing" and other English impatience is the fact that he's resisted the jumped to the EPL and decided to stay at Bayern.

I know the family, and played with and against his brother for many years. Owen being a few years younger, didn't really play with him, or against him, except for once, but I do remember a few kick arounds when we were younger.

But, he was really never pegged (its hard at 14-15 in this country) as being anything over and above any really good player in this city. I'd hazard to say that I played with and against as good or better players at that age then Owen (including his brother).

But, through a local contact (that a few others I know used) he got the chance to go to Europe and a tryout with Bayern among others, at the age of 14, which was perfect timing...a year or two later, he'd have been past it to get into such a club.

He was one of the fortunate to get such a high level chance at that age...but once he got swallowed up by such a prestigous club, where you eat drink and sleep soccer 24/7, his progression and skill went through the roof with the youth club, and then the reserves for a few years.

You can't help but get better in that program..but so few have that initial chance...which can be luck as much as it can be scouting.

[Thunderball]

Originally Posted by azzarish

I've heard people say that Hargreaves sold Canada out. I think that's unfair, he went to Europe to persue his dreams. Let's face it Canada are not going to be world beaters in soccer anytime soon and it's not like basketball (Steve Nash) where he could still be close to home and play the sport he loved, and more importantly win things. Look the amount of trophies he has won with Bayern Munich. What would he have won staying here in Canada? And besides how much were the sporting academies or goverment doing here to promote soccer or pump money in to the game for a team in the future to flourish, not much. He realized he had talent and he wanted to utilize it. The only thing I admit is that a country needs a role model to become interested in a sport, someone like a Gretzky could do wonders for soccer here.

What the English fans are doing to him right now is a kick in the teeth to him deciding to play for England. I don't think it's the fact that he has dual nationality it's the fact that he's in the sqaud when they could have taken another player. A couple of days ago Eriksson sent Hargreaves out to face the press, just like other England players have been doing in the World Cup. Hargreaves came out and said that the English fans don't see him week in and week out so that don't know his capabilities.

No one says he had to play in North America, playing for Bayern was not the problem... refusing to play with the national team... featuring many European based players was. It was a mistake for him, and I'm glad people rub his face in it a little.

[Footscray]

I respect his decision to play for England but I disagree with him strongly. As Thunderball points out he could have still been a multimillionare and played for his own country instead of his dad's - he would have meant alot more to our program and I have no sympathy for him. Once Sven is gone so is his international career.

[cSpooge]

Originally Posted by Footscray

I respect his decision to play for England but I disagree with him strongly. As Thunderball points out he could have still been a multimillionare and played for his own country instead of his dad's - he would have meant alot more to our program and I have no sympathy for him. Once Sven is gone so is his international career.

but you know what, I wonder if he'll mind it all that much. If he played for Canada there is no way in hell he'd get to say he played in the World Cup. As much as I am proud to be canadian I support Nederlands and Ukraine for soccer (my heritage). If Canada were to give a flying crap about soccer and actually help the players out I MIGHT support them. I have no problems with him choosing to play for the country of his father, hell Germany also wanted him to play for them.

[Jagger]

Originally Posted by Footscray

.......and played for his own country instead of his dad's -

I have a few problems with this. I'm English and my kids were all born in Canada. They are Canadian, of course, but they are also British. It's not just my country it's theirs too. I'm certain that's this is the case with Owen too. He has dual nationality so he is playing for his country, just not the one where he was brought up.

If one of my sons wanted to play for England OR Canada I would support their decision 100%. They would not be selling out either country.

[KevanGuy]

Originally Posted by browna

You can't help but get better in that program..but so few have that initial chance...which can be luck as much as it can be scouting.

Hey browna, any idea how the hell he even got discovered? Are there European scouts that frequent Calgarian (or even Canadian for that matter) pitches? Seems crazy to me.

[Fire]

I'm not sure why the German's are upset. It's Canada he betrayed.

[browna]

I've typed 2 long responses, says invalid thread.
In very brief..the guy is Thomas Niendorf that brought Owne, and others, including buddies, over.
Owen was the right age, and had perfect timing, and caught the right eye at the right time....
Owen could've played for Wales too. And his decision would be like any of us chooisng to be a start for British Hockey, or, fight for 3rd line spot on Team Canada.
I bet British Hockey is more well organized that the Canadian Soccer Association.

[browna]

Ok since that one got through, here goes some more.
We have had decent Under 20 teams for the past 10 years...but with no league to play for here, and the CSA providing no other option or support, these decent players scatter around the world playing for low level leagues, or, give up Internation Soccer by 22.
The CSL in the 80's was semi-pro at best, but it allowed the stage for all these players to play with and against otehrs week to week....the WC teams of 1986,90, and 94 (1 team in the WC, the other2 were 1 painful qaulifying win each away from the WC) were largely filled by CSL'ers, with the odd very good player (Forrest, Bunbury etc) flown in for matches...but the majority of this team practiced regularly.
When the CSL folded, so did a place to play. The CSA also wants a puppet as coach. The non Canadian, hardliner Osieck brough this country its best success in 15 years with the Gold Cup, and players bought in.
The CSA didn't like him having so much control, so forced him out, and got Yallop last year.
Yallop went back to the MLS because the program here was a month to month job, not day to day job as it should be.

[browna]

And a 3rd.
Hopefully Toronto FC will help the process along for development, but until the CSA smartens up with the program and stops with the politics, this country's soccer program is going nowhere.

Owen would not have got us in the World Cup. Not even close. But there are good players in this country, that the CSA both has to indentify, and help along somehow, someway. Make it attractive to pay for this country. Market him )or bring in a Euro specialist with Euro contracts to market him to top clubs around Europe so they can play and develop properly...

I know a guy on our current national team, and the program is without enthusiasm, or direction. No continuity, no passion. A bunch of decent players making it on their own, and thrown together last minute to try and play as a team against other programs that are training weekly.

[Footscray]

Browna made alot of really good points, do you ever cruise or post at Voyageurs out of curiousity? Just to add to it a little from my own focal point, I think it's a crap program for one main reason and that's money - we have one of the most inactive national teams in the world because of how poorly funded they are. Until this coming year they never even had a facility to play in to try and generate money, they were splitting games between Swanguard which seats 5,700 people and commonwealth at 55K+ in a city with a much smaller soccer community than toronto, montreal, or vancouver, making money was almost impossible. We have better players than Costa Rica or Trinidad in terms of the level they play at in Europe but the lack of financing and team time kills them.

Kevin Pipe is a tit but to be honest I don't see how much he could have done, granted what little he did was done badly. They don't have any money and the provincial associations (main source of funding through soccer dues) are petty and selfish, they basically need to beg for funds from them which they are miserly with.

As far as owen goes I'm not owen and like I said I respect his decision because it was his to make but I can not imagine doing it myself, we're not Wales but a guy like Ryan Giggs is way more of a stand up guy to my way of thinking turning down England for the place that made him who he is. I've heard from some of the guys who used to play for the Mustangs/Storm that Owen had been back for but a few visits in his whole life and then moved to Germany at 14. It's nice that people who move here feel pride in their former home and try to pass some of that on to their children, in my case it comes from grandparents, but I see myself as being a Canadian - made into the person I am today more by the place my friends are from, that schooled me and taught me how to play soccer. It's a very personal thing and I understand where you are coming from Jagger, mine differs a little is all and that may be the generation further removed.

[browna]

Originally Posted by Footscray

Browna made alot of really good points, do you ever cruise or post at Voyageurs out of curiousity? Just to add to it a little from my own focal point, I think it's a crap program for one main reason and that's money - we have one of the most inactive national teams in the world because of how poorly funded they are. Until this coming year they never even had a facility to play in to try and generate money, they were splitting games between Swanguard which seats 5,700 people and commonwealth at 55K+ in a city with a much smaller soccer community than toronto, montreal, or vancouver, making money was almost impossible. We have better players than Costa Rica or Trinidad in terms of the level they play at in Europe but the lack of financing and team time kills them.

Kevin Pipe is a tit but to be honest I don't see how much he could have done, granted what little he did was done badly. They don't have any money and the provincial associations (main source of funding through soccer dues) are petty and selfish, they basically need to beg for funds from them which they are miserly with.

First, no, I don't frequent any boards, but played up until 7 (long) years ago at a pretty high level, on a club (Callies) which ended up winning 2 national senior titles (both, agonizingly, after I blew my knee to peices playing rec ball hockey off all things). I also was in 3 national final games as a youth,m and 2 CCCA final matches with Mount Royal, so I know enough of the politics that went on for even Canada Summer Games selections, let alone the CSA giving players from provinces other then Ontario and Quebec, chances at national development camps...and I know enough from my good friends who are still playing, the goings on. Knowing a national team member, I get the skinny there at times too.

As far as the program goes, it is $$, but the thing is, I don't imagine there was a lot $$ more kicking around in 1993 when we could've beat Mexico at Varsity Stadium to advance, or, beat Austrailia in 1993 in Penalites to advance onto the SA qualifer to get in the back door. The CSL had local sponsorship and a TSN Tv deal that likely just kept the teams afloat, not stocked the kitty with extra dough.

And now with 4 CONCACAF spots, there's no excuse..1990 and 1994 we would've both been in in the 32 team WC.

The CSA needs to have a strong coach/manager for the National team. Like Oseick, a no nonsense guy who doesn't take losing easily, and doesn't accept the easy excuse for Canadian players who've had to toil in the current system for year....that player buy into his system.

Hire world respected technical co-ordinator(s) that players can respect and learn from, and, also beneift from because those contacts that those co-ordinators have will reap rewards in getting more friendlies against strong opponents other then El Salvador and Guatamela..and those co-ordinators have contacts at Euro club teams where our elite players can play and develop under a proper system. If we can't have a national league where our players can play together, we need our players playing in higher level clubs in Europe to learn the proper techniques, professional attitudes, and work ethic.

It then becomes a chain reaction....playing better teams both increases the teams ability to learn from higher up teams, gain confidence in playing at a world level. More Euro exposure means more elite clubs looking at our players and offering them spots...making the individual, and team, that much better. Those players then have the skill, confidence, both in themselves and the Canadian system, to be excited to come back for friendlies and play together.

As I said, the CSA somehow should shamelessly market our talents to European teams to get them that exposure. But to do that, they have to swallow pride and hire someone who will take this program and make it theirs.

And of course, if this country can get to the WC, it means almost $10 million to the CSA (who can then payback whoever lends them the $$ to get this team up to this level)

[Footscray]

Originally Posted by browna

And of course, if this country can get to the WC, it means almost $10 million to the CSA (who can then payback whoever lends them the $$ to get this team up to this level)

I know a couple of your Mount Royal teammates, what a great team that was. Maybe Kerfoot(sp?) the guy privately funding the potential soccer specific stadium on the waterfront in Vancouver. I sure wish Stronach would have invested some money into football in Canada instead of buying half the Austrian league.

Hiring Richard Bate from the English FA was a smart move by the CSA but they have a long way to go - I really feel like having buildings to play in will really change the landscape - three stadiums in Van, Mon, Tor should eventually mean 3 MLS teams there and I think that is the best thing we can do in terms of advertising them to Europe, providing them with a higher level of visibility and competition. Alot of the Niendorf, Lensky type guys have done so much for the game here but can only do so much, trials are a dime a dozen and academy spots for foreigners are hard to come by, I think it is more important to develop our players here and have them move later, then we will have less of the de Guzman, Hargreaves, Fernandes type dramas going on as well and a more solid foundation to move forward on than hoping Marseilles or Ipswich develops our players for us which will be a good suplement when it does happen.

Tough thing about the upcoming and massive hire of our new national team manager comes back to money, you want to hire someone who knows how it is done like a Venables but these guys make more than our whole program's budget. Hopefully even a great exec stuck in line behind a respected manager in the UK will get picked up ala Craig Button (snicker).

[Jagger]

Originally Posted by Footscray

It's a very personal thing and I understand where you are coming from Jagger, mine differs a little is all and that may be the generation further removed.

I totally respect that, Footscray. I can only talk from my personal viewpoint being in an almost identical situation, in that I'm originally from England and my kids are being brought up, and were born, in Canada. I'm totally proud of my heritage and my kids will be brought up celebrating being both Canadian and British. It's actually a great situation for them imo, giving them many more opportunities in life. I just don't believe that we can, or should for that matter, judge someone as a turncoat against their country when we really don't know that to be the case.