Haditha....

[Azure]

http://www.cnn.com/2006/WORLD/meast/...tsc/index.html

I think there is more to this story then we know.

[Sharpen 'Em]

This has the potential to make the Abu Gharib photos look like absolutely nothing. Apparently there are photos of women and children that were shot while praying.
http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20060531/...BHNlYwN5bmNhdA

[Azure]

Did you read my article?

[jolinar of malkshor]

Originally Posted by Sharpen 'Em

This has the potential to make the Abu Gharib photos look like absolutely nothing. Apparently there are photos of women and children that were shot while praying.
http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20060531/...BHNlYwN5bmNhdA

Its to bad that a small renagade group can tarnish all the good people and good work the US military has done.

[RougeUnderoos]

Originally Posted by Azure

Did you read my article?

I did. What about it?

It's a giant **** sandwich here, and everyone's gonna have to take a bite.

Some reporter saying "they were really nice guys" isn't going to change anything. People are getting fired, demoted, possibly charged with murder. Do you think that civilian has a better grasp on it than the military folks?

[Sharpen 'Em]

Yeah, I read the article. A CNN reporter that was imbedded with that infantry is shocked by all this. She thought they were good guys and there's no way they could do something bad. So? I don't understand what you're getting out of that reporter's writing. When you say there might be more to the story do you mean there is a conspiracy or something? Are you saying the marines were framed? I don't get it.
What the CNN reporter said doesn't change what the Marines are accused of. Right now there are reports which have not been denied by the U.S. government or the military that a few Marines snapped because one of their own was killed by a roadside bomb. They went and killed civilians excecution style. I'm just saying that when the U.S. decides to punish these Marines by possibly the death penalty... it's going to be a huge story that will have a really negative effect. On a different note...to believe that Bush found out about this situation that occured four months after the fact by reading Time magazine is so naive it's hilarious.
Watch this...
http://www.rawstory.com/news/2006/Mu...acre_0530.html

[oldschoolcalgary]

The thing is, people are capable of doing nasty things, given the circumstances - I am sure these guys were nice to the cnn reporter - she was an embedded REPORTER afterall...

I am holding any judgement until the facts come to light, however, it wouldn't be the first time in history that "nice guys" have done terrible things.

[Iowa_Flames_Fan]

My perspective on this is informed by the fact that I have students in my classes who are the same age as these kids--and I've had 3 students who were Iraq veterans, if you can believe it.

My impression of them? They're emotionally a bit raw, have gone through something I can't begin to understand--but they're essentially just kids. The people we're sending over there to do this job (whether you approve of the job or not) are 18-20 year olds whose only training in making moral choices is essentially "do what you're told." I don't know why it should be a surprise that when they're confronted with difficult situations in which they have to make a moral choice, sometimes they make the wrong choice, even if it seems obvious to us.

I'm not saying that any of this justifies what happened. I'm just saying that I feel for the soldiers over there who are in situations each day where they have to make a distinction between a person they have to help and a person they have to kill. The way I see it, that HAS to mess with your mind, especially if you don't have the emotional maturity to handle it. Again, not justifying anything--just pointing out that our position of comfort and safety can make it a little too easy to judge.

I suspect that the "more" to the story Azure is referring to may take the form of something like extreme stress, or sleep deprivation, or a very confusing situation. In addition to investigating the actions of the soldiers, we should be asking questions about who put them in this situation.

[jolinar of malkshor]

Ya its like that experiment that prof did in the US back in the 60's or 70's. The one where he took students, made some of them guards and other prisoners. Crap I cant remember that guys name and experiment. Any how it was pretty scary how good students went way to far with the role and did things they normally would not have done.

Also that experiment when the prof had the students turn up the electric dial and had a guy in the other room pretending that he was being electrocuted yet the students kept turning up the dial when they were instructed to.

Iowa you probably know what I am talking about. Do you remember that guys name?

[Iowa_Flames_Fan]

Originally Posted by jolinar of malkshor

Iowa you probably know what I am talking about. Do you remember that guys name?

It was called the Milgram experiment. It was in 1963, and it found that a lot of people would do what they were being told, in spite of the fact that they were hearing screams of pain coming from the other room. IIRC, some even kept going after the screams stopped. Scary stuff.

You can't do that kind of research any more...

[Vulcan]

Originally Posted by Iowa_Flames_Fan

It was called the Milgram experiment. It was in 1963, and it found that a lot of people would do what they were being told, in spite of the fact that they were hearing screams of pain coming from the other room. IIRC, some even kept going after the screams stopped. Scary stuff.

You can't do that kind of research any more...

1963 was still in a world of mindless obedience, a hangover from WWII and at the height of the Cold War. I don't think you'd get the same results ten years later. I'd like to think that people have begun more independent thought now, but I guess not.

[Agamemnon]

There was a great documentary on the other night about Lima Company, a US reserve unit (I believe) that conducted operations in/around Haditha. Definitely a difficult environment to do their 'job' in. The documentary was incredible, can't remember what its called though... but it really helps give an idea of what Haditha is like for US soldiers.

[Lanny_MacDonald]

After reading the article Arwa Damon, I have but one reaction. I am even more against the idea of embedded reporters. Her relationship has clouded her objectivity, which is the goal behind embedding reporters. "Friends don't rat out friends", or so the hope is situations like this. The military hopes that those bonds that form between a reporter and the soldiers they are embedded with will make questionable events, that deserve to hit the wire, disappear so as not to put frienships in jeopardy. Reporters are supposed to be impartial and report the facts. It appears this reporter is now incapable of doing so. If I were CNN I would reassign her to some fluff detail or out right can her. She's no longer a reliable source for news. Her article just discreditted herself.

[Looger]

happens every occupation of a defeated country. soldiers doing what they can to survive in a hostile environment, and here we have civilians casting judgement on something they can never possibly understand.

put troops in harm's way, with an insurgency that's backed by some of the citizenry in the country you've conquered, and guess what - sometimes the soldiers strike back where they can.

removed from the rule of 'law',

there is ALWAYS murder.

there is ALWAYS rape.

there is ALWAYS theft.

why are we still talking aboot this?

why aren't people asking what the troops are even doing there in the first place?

why are we looking at the SYMPTOMS and not the PROBLEMS?

[rubecube]

Originally Posted by Looger

happens every occupation of a defeated country. soldiers doing what they can to survive in a hostile environment, and here we have civilians casting judgement on something they can never possibly understand.

put troops in harm's way, with an insurgency that's backed by some of the citizenry in the country you've conquered, and guess what - sometimes the soldiers strike back where they can.

removed from the rule of 'law',

there is ALWAYS murder.

there is ALWAYS rape.

there is ALWAYS theft.

why are we still talking aboot this?

why aren't people asking what the troops are even doing there in the first place?

why are we looking at the SYMPTOMS and not the PROBLEMS?

Because the Neocons don't think there are any problems and try to blacklist those who suggest as much.

[Azure]

Originally Posted by Iowa_Flames_Fan

My perspective on this is informed by the fact that I have students in my classes who are the same age as these kids--and I've had 3 students who were Iraq veterans, if you can believe it.

My impression of them? They're emotionally a bit raw, have gone through something I can't begin to understand--but they're essentially just kids. The people we're sending over there to do this job (whether you approve of the job or not) are 18-20 year olds whose only training in making moral choices is essentially "do what you're told." I don't know why it should be a surprise that when they're confronted with difficult situations in which they have to make a moral choice, sometimes they make the wrong choice, even if it seems obvious to us.

I'm not saying that any of this justifies what happened. I'm just saying that I feel for the soldiers over there who are in situations each day where they have to make a distinction between a person they have to help and a person they have to kill. The way I see it, that HAS to mess with your mind, especially if you don't have the emotional maturity to handle it. Again, not justifying anything--just pointing out that our position of comfort and safety can make it a little too easy to judge.

I suspect that the "more" to the story Azure is referring to may take the form of something like extreme stress, or sleep deprivation, or a very confusing situation. In addition to investigating the actions of the soldiers, we should be asking questions about who put them in this situation.

Thank you very much. Those Marines didn't kill innocent civilians because they wanted too. Unless we have served in the conditions they are currently in, there is no way we can understand what they go through.

I'm not declaring them innocent either, but I just find it ridiculous that people would think these Marines would kill somebody in cold blood, while "knowing" it was innocent civilians they were shooting at.

[rubecube]

Originally Posted by Azure

Thank you very much. Those Marines didn't kill innocent civilians because they wanted too. Unless we have served in the conditions they are currently in, there is no way we can understand what they go through.

I'm not declaring them innocent either, but I just find it ridiculous that people would think these Marines would kill somebody in cold blood, while "knowing" it was innocent civilians they were shooting at.

I think it's very possible that they did. But I also believe that it would be the product of stress causing some sort of mental breakdown. There were several cases of this happening Vietnam, who can say it wouldn't happen now?

[Azure]

Originally Posted by rubecube

I think it's very possible that they did. But I also believe that it would be the product of stress causing some sort of mental breakdown. There were several cases of this happening Vietnam, who can say it wouldn't happen now?

You could probably use "cold blood" as a way to explain it. But these Marines did not kill innocent civilians in the freedom of their mind.

I don't disagree with you at all.

[RougeUnderoos]

Originally Posted by Azure

I'm not declaring them innocent either, but I just find it ridiculous that people would think these Marines would kill somebody in cold blood, while "knowing" it was innocent civilians they were shooting at.

So it's all a pack of lies that we're hearing?

[Azure]

Originally Posted by RougeUnderoos

So it's all a pack of lies that we're hearing?

Did I say that?