Religious differences a challenge for world: PM

[Cowperson]

Prime Minister Paul Martin today:

Religious conflicts are one of the biggest challenges facing the international community, Prime Minister Paul Martin said on Sunday as he prepared to head to New York City to attend the United Nations General Assembly.

"You can sit down to discuss economics, you can discuss politics and in fact, there is normally a rational background that one can approach logically," Martin told a banquet marking an interfaith conference hosted by McGill University.

"But when religious differences are allowed to keep us apart, there is no logical way to deal with it."

Agree or disagree?

Why is there no logical way to deal with religious differences given most religions appear to espouse peace, tranquility and tolerance? Or do they?

http://www.canada.com/national/nationalpos...bf-d9990b049446

Cowperson

[Cheese]

100% agree! Youd have to have been living under a rock for the last 2 thousand years not to see that Religion is the single most divisive factor in the world.
A flock of sheep following their leader wherever he says. Religion, no matter the color of it, has caused or had "influence" on nearly every major war.

[Vulcan]

My personal concept on religion is that each master such as Jesus, Moses, Buddha, Confusious [sp], Mohammed,Guru Nanak etc.[ add or subtract whoever turns your crank] began with the same basic experience and explained their experience to fit their times and places. Their experience was perfect, but many of their followers weren't and religion has just become more of vain power grab bringing devisiveness to the world. Even Jesus,it can be argued by his denounciation of his Jewish religion was no fan of religion. Another point for Jesus is that he never wrote anything down. Perhaps he knew how his words would be twisted. Any investigater of Socrates advice to "know thyself" also knows that concepts change.

[troutman]

Some thoughts from people more eloquent than me (positiveatheism.org):

Beliefs are what divide people. Doubt unites them.
-- Peter Ustinov

Pointing to another world will never stop vice among us; shedding light over this world can alone help us.
-- Walt Whitman

In science it often happens that scientists say, "You know that's a really good argument; my position is mistaken," and then they would actually change their minds and you never hear that old view from them again. They really do it. It doesn't happen as often as it should, because scientists are human and change is sometimes painful. But it happens every day. I cannot recall the last time someting like that happened in politics or religion.
-- Carl Sagan

Most of the greatest evils that man has inflicted upon man have come through people feeling quite certain about something which, in fact, was false.-- Bertrand Russell

Strange is our situation here on Earth. Each of us comes for a short visit, not knowing why, yet sometimes seeming to divine a purpose. From the standpoint of daily life, however, there is one thing we do know: that man is here for the sake of other men -- above all for those upon whose smiles and well-being our own happiness depends.
-- Albert Einstein

My point is not that religion itself is the motivation for wars, murders and terrorist attacks, but that religion is the principal label, and the most dangerous one, by which a "they" as opposed to a "we" can be identified at all.
-- Richard Dawkins

[Calgary Flames]

Religion+Politics=War

[Cube Inmate]

Originally posted by Cowperson@Sep 20 2004, 07:49 AM
Prime Minister Paul Martin today:

"You can sit down to discuss economics, you can discuss politics and in fact, there is normally a rational background that one can approach logically," Martin told a banquet marking an interfaith conference hosted by McGill University.

"But when religious differences are allowed to keep us apart, there is no logical way to deal with it." [/i]

Agree or disagree?

Why is there no logical way to deal with religious differences given most religions appear to espouse peace, tranquility and tolerance? Or do they?

He's wrong to begin with...If economics and politics could be discussed logically, we wouldn't have our current political landscape -- we'd have the planet Vulcan.

Interesting contrast between politics and religion though.... Generally, political leaders tend to be the ones who act moderately, with groups or individuals espousing more radical sentiments. On the other hand, religious leaders tend to be more fundamentalist and push for whatever agenda they divine from their religious texts, with individuals taking a more moderate position.

That's arguable, considering the nut-jobs who blow themselves up in the name of their religion, but they're clearly influenced by their religious leadership.

[Agamemnon]

Originally posted by Cube Inmate@Sep 20 2004, 04:53 PM
He's wrong to begin with...If economics and politics could be discussed logically, we wouldn't have our current political landscape -- we'd have the planet Vulcan.

Interesting contrast between politics and religion though.... Generally, political leaders tend to be the ones who act moderately, with groups or individuals espousing more radical sentiments. On the other hand, religious leaders tend to be more fundamentalist and push for whatever agenda they divine from their religious texts, with individuals taking a more moderate position.

That's arguable, considering the nut-jobs who blow themselves up in the name of their religion, but they're clearly influenced by their religious leadership.

Agreed that economics and politics are not exactly unified spheres when compared w/ religion. Many of the world's problems are spawned by economics and politics, and the actions carried out in protest are justified through religion.

Might disagree a bit about how political leaders are more rational or whatever than religious. I don't think Hitler was devoutly religious, I know Saddam Hussein wasn't, nor was Milosevic thinking about taking up the priesthood. I'd say political leaders have probably done a lot worse things this century, mostly due to the fact that they control the world's organizational and state resources.

[Cowperson]

To add to the debate, a long opinion piece in the Boston Globe examining God has divided the Democrats in the USA.

The author is not a Boston Globe writer, but Alan Wolfe, director of the Boisi Center for Religion and American Public Life at Boston College.

The article:

http://www.boston.com/news/globe/ideas/art...19/the_god_gap/

His conclusion:

In politics demography tends to drive ideas. For this reason alone, the turn toward religion that can be seen in the speeches by Kerry and Obama are more than just a tactical response to the Bush administration's open embrace of conservative religious voters. Although neither Kerry or Obama are from the South, they are in line with the direction established for the party by Jimmy Carter and Bill Clinton, politicians who had an instinctive feel for both faith and liberal political positions.

The United States, for better or worse, remains a religious country. No party can be a majority party unless it acknowledges that fact.

Cowperson

[Cube Inmate]

Originally posted by Agamemnon@Sep 20 2004, 11:13 AM
Might disagree a bit about how political leaders are more rational or whatever than religious. I don't think Hitler was devoutly religious, I know Saddam Hussein wasn't, nor was Milosevic thinking about taking up the priesthood. I'd say political leaders have probably done a lot worse things this century, mostly due to the fact that they control the world's organizational and state resources.

Point taken. Dictators and tyrants...a different breed.

[Daradon]

'Why is there no logical way to deal with religious differences given most religions appear to espouse peace, tranquility and tolerance? Or do they?'

The teachings of all the original spiritual leaders are almost mirror like. Religion is fine. In fact it's grand and important.

ORGANIZED religion is the problem.

Leaders have changed the originals teaching (esp Jesus and Mohammed) for years in order to gain control over their people and as much of the world as they could.

We need to start having enlightened followers, not just people who will believe anything a holy person or book says.

Lessons are good, rules, for the most part, are bad. Control in religion is all about taking out free thought and new ideas. Morals and old ways are important, but many of the old ways that have survived for centuries were actually CREATED by mortal men in name of their gods, rewriting the teachings of the original enlightened leaders.

Until people can realise you don't need a temple, mosque, church etc., and figurehead to be spiritual, we are all doomed.

We all know true right and wrong in our hearts anyways. Sure there are a couple gray areas, especially in our modern world, but nothing so divisive if should be causing wars.

[sbailey924]

To me, I hesitate to use the word "religion" because of all the negative connotations that come with it. To me, "religion" is organized and dangerous. I tend to use the word "spirituality" much more. I consider myself heavily spiritual, and I find it shocking that the same fundamentalist protestants that are so against Catholicism's hierarchial practice tend to blindly follow what their church leaders (Christian Coalition, Focus on the Family, etc.) tell them to as far as social issues. It's pretty hypocritical if you ask me.

I'm also surprised by how many people tend to think that the "Left Behind" book series are new additions to the Bible. The thinking that the world is coming to an end soon is dangerous. If you think that way, then sooner than later the world will end (global warming, war, etc.).

[Daradon]

I agree with you 100% Sbailey. I consider myself very spiritual too, but not that religious. The unfortunate thing is that many people think the words are interchangeable, which they are not. Many people think being 'religious' automatically makes a you a 'spiritual' person, when in a lot of cases it really does the opposite.

I was born Catholic and was one of the few people my age who actually took it seriously. When I was Confirmed I really believed I could feel the light of the Holy Spirit come down upon me. But as time when on, my teenage questions turned into more mature wisdom and I realised some truths about the Church and organized religions in general. (Not knocking the religion or the teaching guys, but most would have to admit that the Church, wow...)

The questions and philosophies I studied brought me to where I am now. I have a religion I do subscribe to, but it's a religion in the loosest sense of the word. More a philosophy, like Buddism or Taoism for example than a strict religion woth strict rules. It allows people to be very free thinking and even seeks out modern ideas (within spiritual context) while being one of the most spiritual followings I have found.

I don't knock any religions, I just fear the leaders and establishments have for the most part done great disservices to their flocks over the thousands of years. Really when it comes down to it, the teaching of all major religions (minus the propaganda) are nearly identical.

[Cheese]

Religion = War

To Jews who adhere to ancient tradition, whose number include religious Israeli nationalists, the long-awaited Messiah will return to become the king of Israel and high priest of a rebuilt Temple, which can only be on Temple Mount. For Christian fundamentalists, Jesus Christ's return at the height of the battle of Armageddon, in which forces of the Antichrist clash in Israel with a 200 million-man army from the East, will require a Third Temple from which the Lord will begin a millennial reign. And for Muslims, an Antichrist figure called the Dajal will be a Jew who will lead an all-encompassing war against Islam, which will culminate in the return of Jesus (as a Muslim prophet), the Kaaba, or Sacred Rock in Mecca, transporting itself to Jerusalem, and final judgment in the valley just below the Noble Sanctuary.

These are just two examples of what ?religions? teach their sheep. If you are raised believing this nonsense, by the time you have reached adulthood your entire focus is on the battle between good and evil....or war as espoused by the Religous leaders.

"Once started religious strife has a tendency to go on and on, to become permanent feuds. Today we see such intractable inter-religious wars in Northern Ireland, between Jews and Muslims and Christians in Palestine, Hindus and Muslims in South Asia and in many other places. Attempts to bring about peace have failed again and again. Always the extremist elements invoking past injustices, imagined or real, will succeed in torpedoing the peace efforts and bringing about another bout of hostility." Datuk Seri Dr Mahathir Mohamad, Prime Minister of Malaysia, addressing the World Evangelical Fellowship on 2001-MAY-4.

And once again the list of religous hotspots....its a few years old but still gets the point across....

Some of the world's current "hot spots" which have as their base a significant component of religious intolerance are listed below:

Country Main religious groups involved Type of conflict

Afghanistan Extreme, radical Fundamentalist Muslim terrorist groups & non-Muslims Osama bin Laden heads a terrorist group called Al Quada (The Source) whose headquarters were in Afghanistan. They were protected by, and integrated with, the Taliban dictatorship in the country. Al Quada is generally regarded as having committed many terrorist attacks on U.S. ships, embassies, and buildings. Their goal is to promote a worldwide war between Muslims and non-Muslims. The Northern Alliance of rebel Afghans, Britain and the U.S. attacked the Taliban and Al Quada, establishing a new regime in the country.
Bosnia Serbian Orthodox Christians, Roman Catholic), Muslims Fragile peace is holding, due only to the presence of peacekeepers. 2
Côte d'Ivoire Muslims, Indigenous, Christian Following the elections in late 2000, government security forces "began targeting civilians solely and explicitly on the basis of their religion, ethnic group, or national origin. The overwhelming majority of victims come from the largely Muslim north of the country, or are immigrants or the descendants of immigrants..." 5 A military uprising continued the slaughter in 2002.
Cyprus Christians & Muslims The island is partitioned, creating enclaves for ethnic Greeks (Christians) and Turks (Muslims). A UN peace keeping force is maintaining stability.
East Timor Christians & Muslims A Roman Catholic country. About 20% of the population died by murder, starvation or disease after they were forcibly annexed by Indonesia (mainly Muslim). After voting for independence, many Christians were exterminated or exiled by the Indonesian army and army-funded militias in a carefully planned program of genocide and religious cleansing. The situation is now stable.
India Animists, Hindus, Muslims & Sikhs Various conflicts that heat up periodically. In late 2002-FEB, a Muslim-Hindu conflict broke out, killing an average of 100 people a day over the first five days.
Indonesia, province of Ambon Christians & Muslims After centuries of relative peace, conflicts between Christians and Muslims started during 1999-JUL in this province of Indonesia. The situation now appears to be stable.
Indonesia, province of Halmahera Christians & Muslims 30 people killed. 2,000 Christians driven out; homes and churches destroyed.
Kashmir Hindus & Muslims A chronically unstable region of the world, claimed by both Pakistan and India. The availability of nuclear weapons and the eagerness to use them are destabilizing the region further. More details Thirty to sixty thousand people have died since 1989.
Kosovo Serbian Orthodox Christians & Muslims Peace enforced by NATO peacekeepers. There is convincing evidence of past mass murder by Yugoslavian government (mainly Serbian Orthodox Christians) against ethnic Albanians (mostly Muslim) Full story
Kurdistan Christians, Muslims Assaults on Christians (Protestant, Chaldean Catholic, & Assyrian Orthodox). Bombing campaign underway.
Macedonia Macedonian Orthodox Christians & Muslims Muslims (often referred to as ethnic Albanians) engaged in a civil war with the rest of the country who are primarily Macedonian Orthodox Christians. A peace treaty has been signed. Disarmament by NATO is complete.
Middle East Jews, Muslims, & Christians The peace process between Israel and Palestine suffered a complete breakdown. This has resulted in the deaths of thousands, in the ratio of three dead for each Jew. Major strife broke out in 2000-SEP and is continuing.
Nigeria Christians, Animists, & Muslims Yourubas and Christians in the south of the country are battling Muslims in the north. Country is struggling towards democracy after decades of Muslim military dictatorships. More details
Northern Ireland Protestants, Catholics After 3,600 killings and assassinations over 30 years, some progress has been made in the form of a ceasefire and an independent status for the country.
Pakistan Suni & Shi'ite Muslims Low level mutual attacks.
Philippines Christians & Muslims Low level, centuries old conflict between the mainly Christian central government and Muslims in the south of the country. More details
Russia,
Chechnya Russian Orthodox Christians, Muslims The Russian army attacked the breakaway region. Muslims had allegedly blown up buildings in Moscow. Many atrocities have been alleged.
Serbia, province of Vojvodina Serbian Orthodox & Roman Catholics Serb Ethnic cleansing programs have "encouraged" 50,000 ethnic Hungarians (almost all Roman Catholics) to leave this northernmost province of Yugoslavia. Full story.
South Africa Animists & "Witches" Hundreds of persons, suspected and accused of witches practising black magic, are murdered each year.
Sri Lanka Buddhists & Hindus Tamils (a mainly Hindu 18% minority) are involved in a war for independence since 1983 with the rest of the country (70% Buddhist). An estimated 65,000 have been killed. The conflict took a sudden change for the better in 2002-SEP, when the Tamils dropped their demand for complete independence.
Sudan Animists, Christians & Muslims Complex ethnic, racial, religious conflict which victimizes both Animists and Christians in the South of the country. Slavery and near slavery practiced. There are allegations of crucifixion of Christians. 3
Tibet Buddhists & Communists Country was annexed by Chinese Communists in late 1950's. Brutal suppression of Buddhism continues. *
Uganda Animists, Christians, & Muslims Christian rebels of the Lord's Resistance Army are conducting a civil war in the north of Uganda. Their goal is a Christian theocracy whose laws are based on the Ten Commandments. They abduct about 2,000 children a year who are enslaved and/or raped. 6



Religion is the biggest killer of all time, with many countries being destroyed. The reason is simple. A religion that allows its faithful to "stray" to another religion loses out, so all religions will fight to prove they are truly correct in their belief, and that God(s) is/are on their side. The faith is used as a weapon of immense power, as men, women and children will die with a smile, "Knowing" they will be saved by their god. If they are not, they will go to Heaven, and the enemy will go to Hell, eventually. In my opinion, religion is as bad as dictatorship. No-one and nothing should have that much power.

[lucid]

I think it's inaccurate to label organized religion as dangerous.
Religion and politics together are what's dangerous.
I feel that the purpose of religion in today's world has been completely changed from what it started out to be. Religion is now used as a motivator, as a political tool, as justification for certain actions. And that's not what it should be (for me, at least).
None of the major religions actually preach war; the fact that religions seem to be behind many of the conflicts of the world therefore tells us something important about how the concept of religion has been misconstrued and how religion has taken on properties it was never meant to have.
Spirituality is something private and personal. Organized religion, on the other hand, builds that sense of community and common identity. Looking back at history, there have been advantages to the development of such institutions in society.
I think the problem is that religious groups have strayed beyond the building of community, and the teaching of morals and values, to the point where it has become all too politicized. Groups now make political claims and demands, and justify their actions- not in the realm of religion, but in the realm of politics.
If politics is a realm governed by logic, rational behaviour, etc. and religion is not characterized by any of those qualities, how can it work?
Separation of religion & the state is important, imo. I'm of the opinion that while I may subscribe to a certain religion and have certain beliefs, it is not in my right to say that others must also believe what I do, and therefore the government should not be implementing or backing religiously-based legislation or issues.

Really when it comes down to it, the teaching of all major religions (minus the propaganda) are nearly identical.

Agreed. And looking around me these days, it seems like some of these teachings have become clouded and overshadowed by other things.

[Shawnski]

Religion needs a salary cap.

[CaptainCrunch]

The most dangerous person in any religion is the person that preaches it. The Muslim Extremists for example, the one who does the sermons and preaches to his following is the one that defines how his flock interperets the word of god. Its the same as the fundementalists, or the evangilists who take creative license to interperet the word of god and present it to the people

The Catholic church has been softened due to two factors

1) For the most part the education level is higher for the average Christian(or offshoot) then any other religion in the world, and therefore these people have a view outside of the book. the can also intererpret what is being taught to them.

2) The Christian church had a violent reformation where it was forced to change its practices and the way it deals with its core beliefs. The other religions haven't gone to that level.

The Islamic religion shares many of the same basic concepts and rules as every other religion, a person who follows those rules should have no problems. where the problem comes in with a lot of these religions is these people hear thier Iman's or priests preaching hatred and violence and they believe that its the word of god.

Basically they are doing the same thing that White Supremist Christians are doing.

Religion doesn't create war, Gods do not create war. The weakest link in any religious chain is man, and thats what causes war.

God really dosen't need you to kill in his name. He proved that in the whole Noah's Ark scenario that he can kill just fine on his own.

[Daradon]

'Religion doesn't create war, Gods do not create war. The weakest link in any religious chain is man, and thats what causes war.'

Agree. But religion is a creation of man to fulfill a spiritual need and as history went on, to control mankind and to vie for power.

I don't need religion to see god in my loved ones (or all mankind for that matter) or in the babbling of a brook. I don't need religion to know in my heart what is right. Religion is still a creation of man, and as such, if not used very carefully will actually seperate you from god, instead of pulling you closer.

Just my thoughts though, everyone is entitled to their own. Not trying to preach, just engaging in some debate.

EDIT: Spelling punctuation, the usual.

[troutman]

Originally posted by Shawnski@Sep 21 2004, 03:36 PM
Religion needs a salary cap.

Tax the @*&$ out of the churches!
-- Frank Zappa

[CaptainCrunch]

Originally posted by Daradon@Sep 21 2004, 03:58 PM
'Religion doesn't create war, Gods do not create war. The weakest link in any religious chain is man, and thats what causes war.'

Agree. But religion is a creation of man to fulfill a spiritual need and as history went on, to control mankind and to vie for power.

I don't need religion to see god in my loved ones (or all mankind for that matter) or in the babbling of a brook. I don't need religion to know in my heart what is right. Religion is still a creation of man, and as such, if not used very carefully will actually seperate you from god, instead of pulling you closer.

Just my thoughts though, everyone is entitled to their own. Not trying to preach, just engaging in some debate.

EDIT: Spelling punctuation, the usual.

No and I'm fine with that. I've always said that the thing that turns me off about religion and the bible is that it is tended to and written by a flawed creature.

Even though the bible talks about the 7 deadly sins and the 10 commandments they've put into place aspirations that are nice for every human to strive for, but impossible to achieve due to our nature. Thats a flaw especially when you consider that the church judges a person based on thier abilitiy to follow gods law, yet the bible also contains the phrase "Judge not unless you wish to be judged yourself" (The CaptainCrunch translation). so you have to ask yourself, who should be doing the judging?

The one thing that religion tries to strip from every man is independance from forming your own form of worship. Is the church of god not within the beating heart of every man woman and child? And if it is, is there any point to going to church?

[Daradon]

'The one thing that religion tries to strip from every man is independance from forming your own form of worship. Is the church of god not within the beating heart of every man woman and child? And if it is, is there any point to going to church?'

Exactly, and there are many theories (with significant proof, ties, and credibility) that suggest why organized religion may have done this.

As to your previous comment, another agreement, I've stated to many who would listen in the past. Echoing you I have another example to think of.

The ninth and tenth commandments preach not being jealous (coveting). However the first one in it's entirety states, 'I am a jealous god, thou shall not have other gods beside me...'

Hmmmm...

EDIT: Entirety is a tough word to spell