Yes folks...the conspiracy theorists have turned on each other!!!!

[HOZ]

If you have seen Loose Change or have heard of it you know this was a video about how 9/11 was a big conspiracy; the passenger planes were diverted to another location, the WTC was hit by cargo planes, the Pentagon was hit by a missile, the two towers (and WTC 7) were brought down by controlled demolition, and the cellphone calls were faked. Blah, blah, blah.....


Now I have learned that Loose Change is itself a elaborate conspiracy to sabotage the real 9/11 Truth Movement.

Read it all here!

http://www.erichufschmid.net/Avery-R...phonecall.html

My concern is that the criminal network is promoting Loose Change because they consider it to be the least dangerous to them. Also the criminal network will promote the investigators who are the youngest, most gullible, most naive. They will try to push aside the investigators that could truly expose them, and promote the investigators who are incompetent or easily deceived.

[Frank the Tank]

The fact that anyone would believe one single second of Loose Change floors me.

[White Doors]

What a sick prick that Eric guy is. holy cow.

[Looger]

anything with the phrase 'the conspiracy theorists' guarantees a flawed discussion.

these guys are 'lone gunmen' and they all disagree with each other.

every different theorist believes their own version, and anyone that uses the views of one against others clearly is afraid of what at least one of them has come up with.

edit:
the link, holy ZOG batman!

[Iowa_Flames_Fan]

Originally Posted by Looger

edit:
the link, holy ZOG batman!

Yeah. The world is full of crazies, and they can all purchase their own web space now if they want to. Weird how that guy thinks "the reason they won't believe my 9/11 conspiracy theories is because they don't like my Holocaust conspiracy theories!"

I don't know why we're even giving him any attention. Sounds like even the conspiracy theorists think this guy is crazy.

[Looger]

Originally Posted by Iowa_Flames_Fan

I don't know why we're even giving him any attention. Sounds like even the conspiracy theorists think this guy is crazy.

straw man.

show how ridiculous one theorist is, and it 'discredits' them all.

genius.

[photon]

http://xkcd.com/911_loose_change_viewer_guide.pdf

Some guy went through the whole loose change video to debunk it, this must have taken a LONG time.

[White Doors]

Originally Posted by Looger

straw man.

show how ridiculous one theorist is, and it 'discredits' them all.

genius.

awww.. so you smell a conspiracy afoot?

hahaha

[Looger]

Originally Posted by White Doors

awww.. so you smell a conspiracy afoot?

hahaha

i smell an idiot afoot.

[White Doors]

Originally Posted by Looger

i smell an idiot afoot.

Apply right stick liberally

[Lanny_MacDonald]

I've been mulling over getting involved in this thread. Not really wanting to get into it with a certain poster I'll add my two cents and hope this does not go where I'm pretty sure this thread is headed.

The terms "conspiracy theory" and "conspiracy theorist" have achieved negative status in the zeitgeist (much like the term "liberal"). This is really interesting, because the term really is not a negative one. It just implies that the potential for a conspiracy (the act of conspiring together by two or more people) has been noticed and that a theory (the analysis of a set of facts in their relation to one and another) has been proposed to explain the events. These "conspiracy theories" are not restricted to one side of the political spectrum either. There are plenty of kooky "conspiracy theories" that the right love to cling to as well (UN Oil for Food program, Iraq's WMDs, the link between Iraq and Al Qaeda, etc.) so I think those wishing to cast stones in the direction that question the events of 9/11 should be careful. There are many experts in their individual fileds that question the events surrounding 9/11, and have become vocal because of the terrible job the 9/11 Commission did in investigating the events. Some of the messages being delivered are indeed way over the top, but so is believing that 19 foreign nationals could commandeer four planes fly them around the most populated states in America, striking at some of the most secure airspace, and doing this without reaction of the government/military at the time. Believing that the series of coincidences that "took place" on 9/11 is possible is even just as suspect as believing that something like this "could" be dreamed up by the Bush administration. Let's not forget that a "theory" is nothing more than "a hypothesis assumed for the sake of argument or investigation". As the evidence mounts, one way or another, do we finally find out if the theory becomes fact or fiction. The jury is still out IMO.

Oh, and it appears that almost 1 in 4 Americans thinks the jury is still out too.

http://news.yahoo.com/s/prweb/200605.../prweb388743_4

I would like to point out that a conspiracy like this is indeed very possible. Some will argue that it would be impossible for the government to sit on this, that at some point someone would let it slip. While there is some truth to that, proven by the NSA Wire-tapping/Dometic Spying story, there is substantial proof that a program could indeed remain secret if the government requires it to be secret. Compartmentalization and restriction allows for secrecy at the highest levels. Through the use of document reclassification (the Bush administration has reclassified and restricted more documents than all other administrations combined) the government can shift the sands of truth through the bureaucracy for generations. For those who do not think it possible for the government to keep a secret consider the following projects that the public knew nothing about until the government wanted the information released.

* Manhattan Project - one of the most expensive ventures in history, and the public didn't know about it until the bomb was dropped.

* Tuskeegee airmen experiments - exposure of black soldiers to syphillis for the purposes of understanding the disease better. 200 men die while the government refuses them treatment.

* Cancer experiments - the Rockerfeller Institute for Medical Investigations infects healthy patients with cancer cells. Dr. Cornelius Rhodes, the man responsible for overseeing the program, goes on to establish several biological warfare labs for the U.S. Military and work for the U.S. Atomic Commission.

* Pellegra - millions die from the disease (predominantly poor blacks) and the government refuses to act because of who the disease was ravaging.

* Bio weapons testing - U.S. military releases clouds of zinc cadmium sulfide gas over Winnipeg, St. Louis, Minneapolis, Fort Wayne, the Monocacy River Valley in Maryland, and Leesburg, Virginia. Their intent is to determine how efficiently they could disperse chemical agents.
* Agent testing on the public - CIA initiates Project MKULTRA. This is an eleven year research program designed to produce and test drugs and biological agents that would be used for mind control and behavior modification. Six of the subprojects involved testing the agents on unwitting human beings. Joint Army-Navy-CIA experiments are conducted in which tens of thousands of people in New York and San Francisco are exposed to the airborne germs Serratia marcescens and Bacillus glogigii.


* Weapons platforms - the United States military has been extremely efficient at maintaining the secrecy levels surrounding many weapons platforms (stealth, SR-71, etc.) and continues to be. It should also be noted the United States military has never retired a platform without having a replacement already in service. The public does not know of many of these platforms until the old one is ready for decomissioning.

The government can remain very quiet on things that work in their better interest, especially the military. Compartmentalization allows for this to happen. The Bush administartion has been possibly the most secretive of administrations which makes it probable for information not leaking. When you consider their civilian administration of the military, and the execution of their plans by those within the inner circle (Rumsfeld, Wolfowitz, Cheney, etc.) an unintentioanl leak seems unlikely. These are experienced individuals who have learned their lessons well, and they will compartmentalize to keep secrets. They have done so in the past, they will continue to do so in the future.

[White Doors]

"The public does not know of many of these platforms until the old one is ready for decomissioning"

That's strange because I know all about the new Joint Strike fighter and that isn't even in production yet. Also, the F-15 F-16 and F-18 are all still in service last time heard.

There are so many mistakes and lies in that post I'm not even going to bother.

But good to see you again Lanny!

[Lanny_MacDonald]

Originally Posted by White Doors

"The public does not know of many of these platforms until the old one is ready for decomissioning"

That's strange because I know all about the new Joint Strike fighter and that isn't even in production yet. Also, the F-15 F-16 and F-18 are all still in service last time heard.

That's funny, because the F-14, F-15 and F-16 are all ready to be taken out of service. You may see them around in a support or training role, but as a primary airframe their days are done. As soon as the JSF is rolled out in numbers those planes will diappear.

What you fail to understand is that the JSF is really an augmentation to the existing line of fighters, and is nothing but a collection of existing technologies, where secrecy was not all important thing because the technology has been around. And the reason you know about it is because the military decided to have a very public competition between two vendors for the contract. If the military was indeed developing something revolutionary that would replace the airframe/platform, that would be done through the Skunkworks and you'd never hear or see anything about it. Basically, what you see on the warfield today is about 30 years behind where the RD and sandbox guys are.

There are so many mistakes and lies in that post I'm not even going to bother.

Please feel free to elaborate. If you're going to call a guy a liar, back it up. Please expose my lies and mistakes so I can counter them with what information I have, that you don't.

[photon]

The F-117A was operational for quite a while before the public knew anything about it. It went operational in 1983 butits existance was denied until 1988, and wasn't seen publically until 1990.

[jolinar of malkshor]

Here we go.

[Lanny_MacDonald]

Originally Posted by photon

The F-117A was operational for quite a while before the public knew anything about it. It went operational in 1983 butits existance was denied until 1988, and wasn't seen publically until 1990.

Nice to see someone gets it. Another example, the U2 was not acknowledged to exist by the government, until it was shot down in 1960, almost five years after it's maiden flight. By that time the SR-71 was well into development and close to delivery. Even though the cat was out of the bag, the government was not too upset their secret was out, as they had an even better on on the back burner. It should be noted that the SR-71 was decommissioned in 1998, meaning that something else is out there (likely Aurora or Global Hawk), and the U2 will also be mothballed permanently by as early as next year. There's a new vehicle in service, and it has been for the last decade. That's just the cycle the U.S. government likes to follow. Can't blame them, its effective.

[Azure]

Originally Posted by Lanny_MacDonald

Nice to see someone gets it. Another example, the U2 was not acknowledged to exist by the government, until it was shot down in 1960, almost five years after it's maiden flight. By that time the SR-71 was well into development and close to delivery. Even though the cat was out of the bag, the government was not too upset their secret was out, as they had an even better on on the back burner. It should be noted that the SR-71 was decommissioned in 1998, meaning that something else is out there (likely Aurora or Global Hawk), and the U2 will also be mothballed permanently by as early as next year. There's a new vehicle in service, and it has been for the last decade. That's just the cycle the U.S. government likes to follow. Can't blame them, its effective.

I also don't see anything wrong with it. Disregard spending problems, administration problems and such, I believe that the taxpayers really don't need to know what the military is making in the ways of technology. And if they are worried, simply sign on the dotted line and find out for themselves.

There are too many idiots that would love to get their hands on military tech stuff and sell it to some rogue terrorist state for money.

[Lanny_MacDonald]

Originally Posted by Azure

I also don't see anything wrong with it. Disregard spending problems, administration problems and such, I believe that the taxpayers really don't need to know what the military is making in the ways of technology. And if they are worried, simply sign on the dotted line and find out for themselves.

Don't get me wrong Azure, there are times for secrecy, and R&D of weapon systems is one of them. I have no problem with protecting State secrets. Unfortunately we have found that the government and military get a little power and they can really run wild, abusing the latitude provided to them. There must be a happy medium found, where secrecy does not become a protective shroud allowing the government or military industrial complex to engage in illegal or immoral activities. A lot of ugly stuff has taken place beneath this protective shroud, affecting the lives of millions of innocents, all in the name of national security and secrecy. There is a fine line that is danced all over using secrecy as an excuse. Secrecy also makes oversight very difficult to maintain, and allows for gross abuses of tax payer dollars (to quote Bill Maher, "come on you bunch of right wing #@$%s, now I'm talkng YOUR language!"*).

* Quoted for humor

There are too many idiots that would love to get their hands on military tech stuff and sell it to some rogue terrorist state for money.

You mean like this?



Or maybe these same "idiots" will decide to use them themselves to institute a New World Order?

In all seriousness, you are 100% right, and we must guard against this.

See, we agree on the base principle, just look at it from different ends of the equation.

[Azure]

Don't get me wrong Azure, there are times for secrecy, and R&D of weapon systems is one of them. I have no problem with protecting State secrets. Unfortunately we have found that the government and military get a little power and they can really run wild, abusing the latitude provided to them. There must be a happy medium found, where secrecy does not become a protective shroud allowing the government or military industrial complex to engage in illegal or immoral activities. A lot of ugly stuff has taken place beneath this protective shroud, affecting the lives of millions of innocents, all in the name of national security and secrecy. There is a fine line that is danced all over using secrecy as an excuse. Secrecy also makes oversight very difficult to maintain, and allows for gross abuses of tax payer dollars (to quote Bill Maher, "come on you bunch of right wing #@$%s, now I'm talkng YOUR language!"*).

Absolutely. What I am talking about is something like the F-22. Everyone knows it exists, hell you can probably see it at the local airshow, but nobody needs to know the fine details of how it was made.

I agree wholeheartely with the happy medium.

You mean like this?

I figured you'd bring up something like that. Not exactly what I'm talking about, but that picture brings up a good point.

Or maybe these same "idiots" will decide to use them themselves to institute a New World Order?

In all seriousness, you are 100% right, and we must guard against this.

Or the start of Facism, again.

See, we agree on the base principle, just look at it from different ends of the equation.

Well you're certainly not like some of the other, shall I say, "left-wing" individuals who I've debated with. All they can come up with is that the US should quit spending money on the military.

"Peace dude, all the world needs is peace." As if Iran is suddenly going to exterminate their military program because the US did likewise.

[Looger]

facsism was the 'counter' to communism, and was exactly the same on the bottom. slavery.

communism was the 'counter' to old-school feudalism, and was exactly the same on the bottom. slavery.

is it such a stretch to imagine that there are those in the world that want to impose slavery on others? or re-impose?

keep calling it 'fascsism' or 'communism' or whatever - it is still totalitarianism, despotism.

the mechanisms change, maybe next it's gigantic corporations - which really isn't too different from mussolini's fascist italy.

to deny that there are people working towards a future like this for the western world, is a dangerous course of thinking.

there are those that try to blow the whistle on people in power that conspire to enslave us. listen to them, or don't. but to discredit ALL of them because some (most) are whackjobs?

there's ALWAYS a fringe element of people freaking out aboot nothing.

plenty of dissenters in 1930s europe, and a lot of people didn't listen to them. how did that turn out again?