US planning Iran Stikes: Report

[oldschoolcalgary]

story
http://www.theglobeandmail.com/servl...rnational/home

talkback
http://www.theglobeandmail.com/servl...ntStory/Front/


Well, i can't say this would necessarily be a surprise, but I would be pretty worried about the outcome if Iran does have weapons grade nuclear material...

Doesn't it seem like the Middle East will always be this way? Depressing

[Lanny_MacDonald]

"..President George W. Bush's goal is regime change in Tehran and that the White House regards Iranian President Mahmoud Ahmadinejad as a potential Adolf Hitler who must be stopped..."

Interesting since many in the Middle East feel this way about Bush (and many in America as well). Yes, Ahmadinejad has made inflamatory statements, but his country is presently surrounded by American troops and he could very well be trying to find a common theme to unite the Islamic nations for his battle against the United States should push come to shove, and its sounding more like it will.

Something very disturbing is that I have seen the United States comment that it is prepared to use nuclear weapons in multiple articles in the past few months. IMO, this is testing the people's resolve in America and seeing if there would be significant outcry against this strategy. At this point there hasn't been a ripple in the public psyche. The United States was the last to use nuclear weapons, and there is every indication they will be the next one to do so as well. This could quickly spin out of control.

[Coelah]

"Mr. Hersh, the reporter who exposed the Abu Ghraib prisoner-abuse scandal in 2004, said U.S. President George W. Bush's goal is regime change in Tehran and that the White House regards Iranian President Mahmoud Ahmadinejad as a potential Adolf Hitler who must be stopped. His article quoted a series of unnamed current and former U.S. military and intelligence officials."

Wait, I thought Saddam Hussein was the potential Hitler?


"Veteran investigative journalist Seymour Hersh wrote in the latest issue of The New Yorker magazine that teams of U.S. combat troops have been ordered into Iran under cover and a series of military options is being explored, including use of tactical nuclear weapons to destroy Iran's underground nuclear sites."

Does anyone else find it ironic that the excuse the US is using to justify their aggressive stance with Iran is the danger of nuclear weapons and they have plans to use nuclear weapons?

[Lanny_MacDonald]

Originally Posted by Coelah

Wait, I thought Saddam Hussein was the potential Hitler?

Gee, which world leader has had him military invade two countries and is now eyeballing a third? Which wrold leader is acting more like Hitler than any other? Who is going to stop Bush and his neo-conservative brown shirts?

[Cheese]

I thought that I might escape seeing war in this part of the world in my lifetime. If the US does bomb Iran I would think we will see attacks on North American soil.

[White Doors]

Other than terrorist strikes, there is no way Iran can strike the USA now.

[calculoso]

I forget which tv station I was watching last night (CNN? Global?) but they mentioned that the Bush Government was considering the use of force, but was leaning towards the diplomatic angle as their primary (and currently only) effort.

I really hope that this is true. Although the leader of Iran is a loose cannon, I don't see the need to go in and remove him. I just wish Bush would leave well enough alone and clean up the messes that are out there now, instead of creating new ones.

Here would be a great time for the UN to step in and actually do something...

[Lanny_MacDonald]

Originally Posted by White Doors

Other than terrorist strikes, there is no way Iran can strike the USA now.

No, none at all. Great post Mr. Geo-politics. Now, just thinking outloud, would this categorize as striking the USA?

1) Providing direct military support to the Shia in Iraq, tilting the balance of the civil war in Iraq and further destabilizing the region. Don't forget for one secont that the Americans HAVE TO WIN in Iraq or be viewed as a huge failure and completely defeated by the Islamic world.

2) Destroy the Iraqi oil fields. Destroy the oil fields period. Drive the price of oil to $120 a barrel, crippling the American economy.

3) Force the Americans into striking Iran, making America look like the bad guy and losing the rest of their international support.

4) Send home a big shipment of body bags filled with Americans. The United States has very little resolve and does not react well to the site of its own blood. Send home a few thousand body bags (sink a carrier or battleship should do that) and watch the American resolve crumble to nothing. This country is already against the Iraq war because of the dead they are not seeing. Let them see the death toll close up and they'll demand the troops be brought home. Nothing is more important in this country than "their children". Oh, and if the Iranians manage to get this done they achieve option one as well.

Iran doesn't have to strike United States soil to strike the United States and take the country to its knees. There are plenty of ways to hammer the United States and hurt them in ways worse than a bombing at a mall.

[itcrossedtheline]

Originally Posted by calculoso

Here would be a great time for the UN to step in and actually do something...

It would be hard for the UN to step in and do anything since they are mostly funded by the United States.

Why bite the hand that feeds them?

The UN is a puppet oraganization that has no real pull.

I'm in no way supporting Iran's WMD ambitions nor those of North Korea, India or Pakistan but there has to be a better solution to this problem or else we will end up in WW3.

And again, a leader voted in democratically (unlike Iraq) is what the United States wants...they may not like the result, but the US doesn't have the right to put in place who they want, they already experienced this with Saddam Hussein who they put in power in the 80's and look how that turned out

[RougeUnderoos]

Originally Posted by White Doors

Other than terrorist strikes, there is no way Iran can strike the USA now.

That's all well and good, but it's like saying "the suspect is unarmed, but he does have a large knife in his hand".

I don't know much about military things, but from what I've read I'm quite sure I wouldn't want to be on a boat in the Persian Gulf if those Iranians decide to shoot back.

[Lanny_MacDonald]

An interesting speech given by Jim Huhtala, candidate in Sherburne County, Minnesota. Says a lot of what people are feeling at the mid-terms.

Good afternoon,

My name is Jim Huhtala and I’m running for House Representatives in 16B.

I am an old school Democrat who believes that Government should work for the common good of people instead of the other way around.

And I know why I’m a Democrat.

A Democrat knows the life of a Soldier is worth more than the profits of Halliburton or the grandiose delusions of a simple minded President.

A Democrat knows the health of our citizens is worth more than the profits of drug and insurance companies no matter how much they contribute to your party.

A Democrat knows Homosexuality is not a contagious disease that is spread by living next to one.

A Democrat knows that real “family values” means teaching our children to always seek the truth, admit and learn from their mistakes and to take responsibility for their actions.

I’m a Democrat because I know that having 3 branches of Government is better than one.

Our Constitution doesn’t just ask our congress to oversee the executive branch, it demands it. So if Congress doesn’t have the guts to do so we must throw them out.

A Democrat knows that the biggest threat to our way of life comes not from foreign shores but from abuse of power right here at home.

A Democrat knows that education is better than ignorance, fact is better than deception and scientific knowledge is better than faith based opinions.

I’m a Democrat because, unlike my opponent, I know the earth is much older than 5000 years.

A Democrat knows that the best way to stop abortions is to reduce poverty, increase education, and encourage the use of condoms and other preventative measures including abstinence.

A Democrat demands that all Americans have clean air to breath, clean water to drink, clean elections to vote in.

I’m a Democrat because I know that oil is a finite resource.

I’m also a democrat because I know who the real enemies of this nation are.

They are those who suppress and disqualify the votes of any American citizen. A poor persons’ vote is just as important as the well-connected persons’.

Our enemies are:

those who trample on due process in our name. We are the party that believes in the rule of law!

Our enemies are:

anyone who says that we must give up or freedoms to be more secure. To you Republicans I say Our Security is our freedom. 911 happened because our leaders were incompetent, ignorant and arrogant not because we were too free.

Our enemies are:

anyone who says that buying Goods and Services from companies that abuse and enslave their workers is good for America. It’s destroying the American middle class and Democrats will not stand for it.

Our enemies are:

those who say that there should be no separation between Church and State. This is what Osama Bin Laden stands for not Thomas Jefferson.

Our enemies are:

those who would sell this nation to China, Dubai, Saudi Arabia, Exxon, Enron or Halliburton. America is not for sale!

Our enemies are:

news organizations that think that shading or slanting the truth is somehow patriotic. Democracy cannot survive without an informed electorate. Democrats will not stand for it any longer.

There are also:

those, even in out own party, who abandon their principles because they think it makes them more electable.

Our Democratic Senators should have supported Russ Feingold’s Censure resolution and shame on them for not.

Through out history our greatest Heroes are those who spoke simple truths and took bold action against the status quo. Through words and deeds they defeated great armies and changed the world. They were willing to give their life for what they knew was right.

A carpenter’s son changed the world by stating that all peoples had value in the eyes of God. And he was right! If Carl Rove was around 2000 years ago would he have branded Jesus a liberal wacko?

Colonists told the king of England that all people are created equal.

And they were right! If Dick Cheney was in the King’s court 230 years ago would he have accused the colonists of giving aid and comfort to the enemy?

A poor Illinois lawyer taught us that a house divided will never stand and slavery must end. And he was right! Would Joe Lieberman have counseled Lincoln to take a more moderate stance?

A poor black minister named King taught us the value of peaceful resistance and moral certitude. And he was right! Would Bush Have him arrested and sent to Guantanimo as a terrorist?

There are still many Heroes in this country.

We see them in our Schools has well has our Armed Services.

They are in our police and fire departments.

They sit on juries, work in Nursing Homes and hospice care. They grow our food and Transport our goods.

They work 40, 50, 60 or more hours a week to raise their families.

They volunteer at churches to help the homeless and poor, They are seen at parks and playgrounds teaching children the value and strength of teamwork and cooperation.

They sit outside of a “Ranch” near Crawford Texas and demand to know why we are waging war.

They walk through lines of hate to provide health services to poor women.

They stand with our Gay brothers and sisters, sons and daughters to say that they too are equal and have value in this great country.

And they gather in small groups on week nights and Saturdays to cast their votes, voice their opinions, volunteer to talk to their neighbors, pledge their hard earn monies to make a difference and elect officials that will make this country better.

Ladies and Gentlemen: We have all heard the saying that Republicans are the party of bad ideas and the Democrats are the party of no ideas. We can’t change the country if we can’t even change our caucus. Now more than ever it’s time we rid this nation of elected officials whose only goal seem to be their own re-election and whose strategy seems to be not to rock the boat.

Our leaders can’t point us in the right direction if they have both hands covering their own asses! We know what’s right and it’s time we demand that those who represent us stand up and be DEMOCRATS.

My name is Jim Huhtala, I’m a Democrat and I need your vote. Thank you.

Argue with those feelings of a proud American!

[Canada 02]

Originally Posted by White Doors

Other than terrorist strikes, there is no way Iran can strike the USA now.

This is not a pop gun military. Iran has one of the largest militaries in the world - heavily fortified and supported by the Russians, China and North Korea, and before that, the Americans! THey would likely lose a war with the Americans, but not before inflicting a hell of lot of damage and making a lot of Americans (and Israelis) widows or parentless.

[calculoso]

Originally Posted by Lanny_MacDonald

4) Send home a big shipment of body bags filled with Americans. The United States has very little resolve and does not react well to the site of its own blood. Send home a few thousand body bags (sink a carrier or battleship should do that) and watch the American resolve crumble to nothing. This country is already against the Iraq war because of the dead they are not seeing. Let them see the death toll close up and they'll demand the troops be brought home. Nothing is more important in this country than "their children". Oh, and if the Iranians manage to get this done they achieve option one as well.

With this constant trickle of one or two bodies coming back that we see now, I agree that the resolve of the US is weakening. That said, if a carrier or battleship was blown up, I think a strong revenge feeling would be generated. Just look at 9/11 (although on a much larger scale).

To summarize, it seems to be a:

If "our children" are slowly killed due to "us" being there, it is our fault and let's get out of there so it won't happen.

If "our children" are massively killed at one shot, screw you! You die!

[liamenator]

If the United States does choose to go the counterproliferation route, with large-scale air and missle strikes against the Iranian nuclear infrastructure it will be a reaction to a conclusion reached in Washington that, given the history of suspision and tension between the two countries and the inherent anti-Americanism in Iran there would be no possible way to help accelerate a regime change in Tehren. This is probably true, and it has been argued by Kenneth Pollack among others that it would probably have the opposite effect. Thus the strikes would be aimed at slowing down the Iranian nuclear program, delaying the ability of the current regime to acquire nuclear weapons before the end of their reign.

The Israeli Osiraq raids in Iraq proved to be a success in employing this strategy as they delayed Hussein's nuclear program enough so as to ensure he did not possess such weapons in time for the Iran-Iraq war or the Gulf War... while delaying it by just enough so that he was unable to acquire nuclear capabilities before he was deposed. Many argue it was an act of tremendous foresight that had obvious benefits for the region and the world as a whole.

So.. There is a substantial case to be built for such a strategy. No doubt, the US would face tremendous international criticism - as Israel did with Osiraq, and there would be other serious ramifications.

Iran would innevitabley support terrorist attacks at the US, or carry them out themselves. Also, Afghanistan and Iraq present obvious avenues in which Iran could strike a blow at US interests in the region. Backdoor Iranian support in both areas has been critical to US efforts in both areas to this point. Domestically, it would be the death knell for the Iranian reform movement due to their percieved "ties" to the United States (however, argueabley, this movement is dead anyway).

The main problem I see is that this strategy does not do anything to address 2 of the 3 primary concerns of the United States in regards to Iran: Iran's support of terrorism and their violent opposition to the middle east peace process.

Complex issue.. I have more to add, but Ive got to go to class now, lol.

[SaskaBushFire]

So if the U.S. are backing Isreal, who is backing Iran?

I beleive they fought for the Germans in WW2, or atleast for Hitlers 'cause', but I imagine those ties have long been severed.

[liamenator]

Originally Posted by SaskaBushFire

So if the U.S. are backing Isreal, who is backing Iran?

Thats the million dollar question.

The Iranian position has not been as strong as it is now for quite some time.

In the Cold War days, central to Iran's foreign policy strategy was their ability to play one superpower off against the other to further their own aims.. But after 1991, they were unable to do so.

The evolving situation of world politics is creating an environment condusive to Iran's interests. An emerging China, a Russia hell-bent on re-attaining "First-Rank" power status, A nuclear North Korea and Pakistan and a queezy situation in the Middle East are all increasingly becoming players that can be used to manipulate the US hegemon, from their perspective.

[White Doors]

Originally Posted by Lanny_MacDonald

No, none at all. Great post Mr. Geo-politics. Now, just thinking outloud, would this categorize as striking the USA?

1) Providing direct military support to the Shia in Iraq, tilting the balance of the civil war in Iraq and further destabilizing the region. Don't forget for one secont that the Americans HAVE TO WIN in Iraq or be viewed as a huge failure and completely defeated by the Islamic world.

2) Destroy the Iraqi oil fields. Destroy the oil fields period. Drive the price of oil to $120 a barrel, crippling the American economy.

3) Force the Americans into striking Iran, making America look like the bad guy and losing the rest of their international support.

4) Send home a big shipment of body bags filled with Americans. The United States has very little resolve and does not react well to the site of its own blood. Send home a few thousand body bags (sink a carrier or battleship should do that) and watch the American resolve crumble to nothing. This country is already against the Iraq war because of the dead they are not seeing. Let them see the death toll close up and they'll demand the troops be brought home. Nothing is more important in this country than "their children". Oh, and if the Iranians manage to get this done they achieve option one as well.

Iran doesn't have to strike United States soil to strike the United States and take the country to its knees. There are plenty of ways to hammer the United States and hurt them in ways worse than a bombing at a mall.

Well if you read the post I was responding to, ascerbic one, you would have seen that it was in specific reference to 'this part of the world' but anything for you to try and make yourself look smart, so whatever - carry on. You might want to try reading the context of a post you respond to.
Of course, insulting other posters is really what you want to do here, so don't let facts come between you and that.

[White Doors]

Originally Posted by Canada 02

This is not a pop gun military. Iran has one of the largest militaries in the world - heavily fortified and supported by the Russians, China and North Korea, and before that, the Americans! THey would likely lose a war with the Americans, but not before inflicting a hell of lot of damage and making a lot of Americans (and Israelis) widows or parentless.

They said the same thing about the scary republican Guard. There is no military in the world that has a chance against the US.

[SoulOfTheFlame]

Originally Posted by White Doors

They said the same thing about the scary republican Guard. There is no military in the world that has a chance against the US.

Hmm... why haven't they finished the Iraq war yet then?

Also... In terms of skill alone... The Canadian armed forces always beat the US in anual war games.

[Lanny_MacDonald]

Originally Posted by White Doors

Well if you read the post I was responding to, ascerbic one, you would have seen that it was in specific reference to 'this part of the world' but anything for you to try and make yourself look smart, so whatever - carry on. You might want to try reading the context of a post you respond to.
Of course, insulting other posters is really what you want to do here, so don't let facts come between you and that.

Yes, don't let facts come into play there, pal. You were in another thread yapping on and on about geo-politics (and you were outted which is why you ran away) and now you come into this thread, where geo-politics is the answer to your poorly thoughtout post, and now you try to dismiss the concept. You do not have to strike the heartland of America to make Americans feel pain. That's what you neo-cons fail to acknowledge.

America's addictions can be so easily used against her. The most painful thing the Iranians could do is to destroy the Iraqi oilfields, blockade the Straight of Hormuz (mine the hell out of it or sink a couple big ships in there), and then watch America shrivel on the vine as their oil dependency kills them. Do you have any idea what a $120 barrel of oil does to the American economy? Immediate depression. Iran could cripple America without landing a single shell on North America.