Missing the mark

[Sparks]

Well, after six years of post-secondary noodling, it looks like I'm about to fail out of university (again). I hope to come back and finish off my final year sometime, assuming they let me back in five years down the line or something.

My question is, has anyone here not gone the university route, and how has it worked out for you? College, Sait, no post-secondary, whatever. (Or has anyone else had - let's just say - an adventurous university career?)

[Jayems]

Unless you want to work in the trades, or a job with out much money, you pretty much need school. I've finally decided to go back after screwing around and not taking school and trying to get a free ride. No dice.

[Calgary Flames]

One thing is for certain, you don't need University to make a living. I'd suggest taking some kind of fast-track program at SAIT. 6 months can get you the same job as someone who has taken 5 years of university study.

You will need Post secondary though that's for sure. It all depends on WHAT you're studying too.

[peter12]

Originally Posted by Calgary Flames

One thing is for certain, you don't need University to make a living. I'd suggest taking some kind of fast-track program at SAIT. 6 months can get you the same job as someone who has taken 5 years of university study.

You will need Post secondary though that's for sure. It all depends on WHAT you're studying too.

Jordan... that just doesn't make any sense whatsoever. So a guy or girl who takes SAITs 2 year petroleum engineering program is going to be getting the same pay and have the same status as the guy or girl who has their BEng?

SAIT has fantastic programs and don't their billboards say 98% employed? But you just can't rise as high in any situation as someone with a degree.

[Calgary Flames]

Entry level you're probably right, you wouldn't make as much as a university grad. But your earning potential isn't any different. Once you're within a company and have showcased what you can do. Whether or not you went to University of a College like SAIT is thrown out of the window.

[freakinsaprikin]

As somebody that has just resently returned to university after being in the work force for 8 years, You are much better off with some kind of post secondary education.

There is lots of options for people who don't have an education, just not alot of attractive one's that pay very well.

After doing alkinds of research on the value of a diploma vs a Degree the last 8 months, you are much better off in the long run with a degree.

[Captain Sensible]

Originally Posted by Calgary Flames

One thing is for certain, you don't need University to make a living. I'd suggest taking some kind of fast-track program at SAIT. 6 months can get you the same job as someone who has taken 5 years of university study.

You will need Post secondary though that's for sure. It all depends on WHAT you're studying too.

I think you are right, but only in regards to the early part of a person's career. SAIT programs provide a quick and very practical way to get started in any particular field you choose and you may very well be doing the same job as someone with a full degree.

The difference emerges later on when the individual with a 4 year degree (or graduate degree) becomes a better candidate for promotion, etc.

I have a 4 year arts degree from U of C and was having trouble deciding what I wanted to do, but have quite recently found a great job that I am planning on sticking with for the long haul. In hindsight, the plan I wish I had followed is the following:

1) Take a 2 year applied program from SAIT, NAIT, Mount Royal, etc.
2) Get my foot in the door with a good organization, get some work experience under my belt and make some money.
3) Work with the company for a few years and then apply to go back to school and finish a full degree or an MBA, hopefully fully covered by the company.
4) End up in either an executive position with the company or running my own business.

[KielC]

nm

[Shawnski]

Originally Posted by Jayems

Unless you want to work in the trades, or a job with out much money, you pretty much need school.

BS, complete, and utter BS. I bill out at minimum $65 per hour right now, my lowly high school diploma in hand. And I am not even going full out right now (Dad situation and all.)

Some of the stupidest people I have ever met had Master's degrees, while some of the most business savvy and valuable people to the organizations I worked with did not have degrees. Take that to the bank.

There are certainly advantages of getting that university document to fall back upon, and as the Captain indicates, it is something that will be a plus as you move along your career path. But, and I mean BUT, it is not the end all, be all.

Don't give up Sparks. Perhaps the program you chose was just not in the cards for you. Everyone has strengths, and activities they truly enjoy doing. Focus on those. That may take you back to the schooling route, or it may take you in another direction. Find what you love to do... and do it. But put your energy completely behind it. Leave nothing behind and do it well. THAT will bring you far more success than any piece of paper will.

Hemsky's pinky be damned... I don't want just flashes of awesome skill in an employee... I want that person to rock the world. Hello Dion. Hello Sandbox. Hello Rhett. THOSE are the ones that I want in my organization, not the pinkies of the world.... Surprising how hockey mimics the real world in that aspect.

Good luck!!

[oldschoolcalgary]

School isn't for everyone.

I think that you really need to have a clear focus about what you are planning on doing - esp for those going back to school after being in the work force.

A post-secondary education (depending on the field) will, more often than not, give you a higher ceiling in your chosen profession. It will also "get you in the door".

But there are exceptions to that as well. If I recall correctly, Sait recently recieved a multi-million dollar donation from a Sait grad who made it big in petroleum.

When it comes down to it, it is a question of how hard do you work? Are you ambitious? Are you easy to work with? Are you someone who leads or follows? These aren't things that are taught at University; they are inherent in the kind of person you are.

A degree gives you the "benefit of doubt" in the workforce, but that can be overcome through hard work and performance too.

I've done the University route (undergrad, grad studies and teaching grad students) and loved it...but in doing so, I also worked in warehouses as a shipper (loved driving forklifts) and on assembly lines too (great down to earth people that made it "fun").

Ultimately, success and intelligence aren't a function of holding a degree...I know and respect a lot of people who haven't gone the same route. Nothing replaces being a good person and working hard.

[toonmaster]

Originally Posted by peter12

Jordan... that just doesn't make any sense whatsoever. So a guy or girl who takes SAITs 2 year petroleum engineering program is going to be getting the same pay and have the same status as the guy or girl who has their BEng?

there is no such thing as a bachelor of engineering!!!!

it is a BSc, with a major in engineering, and with experience and other things you get a PEng title

just a pet peeve of mine

[Calgary Flames]

Originally Posted by KielC

Completely untrue, if your talking about engineering or earth sciences. A SAIT graduate cannot get the P.Eng/P.Geol/P.Geoph designation and therefore does not have as much earning potential.

I did go on to say it depends on the job.

[BlackArcher101]

As a SAIT graduate, I decided that University wasn't the best choice at the time after graduating. I'm currently in a nice job in the engineering field.

I say do whatever you want. You can climb up the ladder in a company just as well without a PEng or degree. In fact, some companies have parallel pay raises between people with degrees and others without.

It comes down to what job you want. Some will require a degree, some not. You don't necessarily need one.

Let's take Engineering for example.
There used to be 2 groups. Technologists and Professional Engineers. That was it. Both still exist now, but there is a Registered Professional Technologist, which lets you act out Engineer duties independantly within a narrow scope. A step in the right direction. Too bad an undergrad degree is still required for PEng. Perhaps one day I will return and obtain the degree and get the PEng, just so I can work a stamp on my own.

[oldschoolcalgary]

Originally Posted by fotze

See right there you are admitting that you think it may be worth it to get the degree. Also people who have both the SAIT and a degree tend to do very well from what I have seen.

Hank Swartout the CEO of precision drilling, did "SAIT + Degree" thing and apparently made $70 million this year.

Keith Macphail also got a degree after his SAIT diploma.

You don't need post secondary education to make a good life for sure. But if you are aiming for the CEO, board member thing then it is pretty much a minimum.

Most definitely, I agree with your points.

But the truth is guys like Macphail and Swartout are a pretty special breed and would be successful because of their drive and desire, not because of any education per se.

again, its all about the individual person and the type of career they want to do - some careers require a University education while others do not - this distinction is probably the easiest way to start the decision process.

[BlackEleven]

Originally Posted by toonmaster

there is no such thing as a bachelor of engineering!!!!

Actually, there is. It depends what province you get your degree in. In Quebec engg grads get a B.Engg, not a BSc as they do in AB.

[Bobblehead]

Originally Posted by toonmaster

there is no such thing as a bachelor of engineering!!!!

it is a BSc, with a major in engineering, and with experience and other things you get a PEng title

just a pet peeve of mine

Depends upon your institution.

McMaster issues B.Eng link

Those 2 degrees almost seem interchangeable.

[calculoso]

It all depends on the company you're with.

My company has started hiring P.Eng's only.. even those with a BSc can't get a job, unless there are special considerations. Someone with a SAIT degree would totally be overlooked.

[toonmaster]

Originally Posted by BlackEleven

Actually, there is. It depends what province you get your degree in. In Quebec engg grads get a B.Engg, not a BSc as they do in AB.

Originally Posted by Bobblehead

Depends upon your institution.

McMaster issues B.Eng link

Those 2 degrees almost seem interchangeable

i stand corrected, i was positive there was no such thing even outside of AB, but at least i got Alberta's engg situation bang on