Diesel or Gas?

[Nabber]

Hey guys seeing as CP is so helpful with these things I need some help deciding whether to go with a diesel or gas car. I'm looking to get a new jetta and I'm having a toss-up between the TDI model or the regular gas GLS model. I will be driving the car a lot so fuel efficiency is a minor factor but just would like the benefits and downfalls to each fuel and or model, thanks in advance.

[Ace]

Gas -- currently cheaper, easier to find, cheaper to repair...

[Bill Bumface]

If you don't care about performance and you have somewhere to plug it in all winter, diesel for sure.

The repair issue isn't really valid as diesel's can go very far between servicing.

[ricosuave]

if you drive a lot, the diesel is the better deal
- better fuel economy
- better resale value
- diesels are pretty basic for maitenance
- modern diesels are cleaner, quieter, and have much more power

i own a diesel jetta, and i dont know that i would ever go back to a gas model.

[ken0042]

I still think people who drive diesel cars should have the tail pipe mounted at the front of the car, so they can live with the awefull smell that the rest of us have to.

[11mile]

What year? If you're referring to the MK4 GLS, that's one terrific car. Since fuel efficiency is a "minor" factor, I'll assume you're in it for fun.

In terms of aftermarket fun, both cars are versitile... however, GLS>>TDI. It takes almost nothing to get the GLS up to 240hp/260tq at the flywheel. There's a lot of 1.8T motors running 360+hp/tq in a stable, reliable fashion (mine got up to 175,000 MILES before I sold it).

Resale is higher on TDIs.

Buying a GLS used can be tricky. Since they're so easily modified, you have to keep an eye open for an abused lease turn-in.

Depending on the year of GLS, some can have a few issues. The 1999-2001 AWD motor codes have faulty timing belt tensioners and crap ignition coils... If it's not replaced early, you may have issues. Post-2001 GLS (AWP motor) fixed both problems.

As someone mentioned in another thread, vwvortex is a terrific place to read up.

[calculoso]

I agree with Ken 150%.

After driving behind one for any length of time, I tend to wish that they would outlaw the damn things.

[Nabber]

Thanks guys, I've never really noticed anything with regards to the smell coming from diesels but maybe I just pawn it off as being the environment. I'm hoping to get a 04 or 05 looks like I'm leaning towards the TDI model, and now that I think about it fuel economy is probably the most important factor.

[I-Hate-Hulse]

Check the maintenance schedules of both and price them out. I seem to recall reading somewhere that the TDI needed some very expensive maintenance that the gas model didn't at one of the intervals.

[ricosuave]

there is a big difference being behind a vw tdi and a rig, or bus or something.

[calculoso]

Yes there is...

There is also a big difference between being behind a diesel VW Jetta / etc and a gas Honda/Toyota/Ford/GM/etc.

[Looger]

my boss drives 30,000+ kms a year for work and is paid by the mile - a diesel is worth it for him, he's on his second vw.

but the best diesels in the world, just, over time get weaker. can't tune them up, have to replace the injectors. on the trucks, it can cost $800 or more per cylinder.

they work in europe because people get new cars faster there, a diesel is not a 10-year car.

why the injectors cost what they do, i don't know - if people replaced them as often as, say, timing belts, 100,000 kms, it probably wouldn't be as bad.

[ricosuave]

Originally Posted by Looger

my boss drives 30,000+ kms a year for work and is paid by the mile - a diesel is worth it for him, he's on his second vw.

but the best diesels in the world, just, over time get weaker. can't tune them up, have to replace the injectors. on the trucks, it can cost $800 or more per cylinder.

they work in europe because people get new cars faster there, a diesel is not a 10-year car.

why the injectors cost what they do, i don't know - if people replaced them as often as, say, timing belts, 100,000 kms, it probably wouldn't be as bad.

to say that the best diesels get weaker over time is really a misnomer. your average gas engine will go 200-300k before needing a rebuild. if you consider 500k+ average lifespan of a diesel engine 'long' then maybe they do. i dont know about rig injector repair, maybe they do cost 800 a cylinder, but there is no way an injector costs 800 each on a jetta. to replace mine with rebuilt will cost about $200 for all 4 and 15 minutes of my time. they screw out like a spark plug, and are about as complex. maybe they are pricier from the stealership if you price out labour and parts, but cmon, lets compare apples to apples, shall we? maybe you would also like to explain how europeans get new cars faster too? that just doesnt make sense. the diesel engine choices in vehicles all around the world probably outnumber gas 10 to 1 in the rest of the world, but in north america, its the other way around. why? because americans are oil depend fuel consuming hogs, and they never learned to embrace fuel efficient technologies such as diesel because they never had a reason to! they are leaning towards hybrid and stuff now because the demand for foriegn oil is pushing them that way. if it wasnt for that, you wouldnt see it. and another thing, a diesel is totally a 10 year car, because if it wasnt, if not for the longevity, why would people buy them?? diesel engines have to be built stronger than a gas engine because they have to withstand greater temperatures and pressures, therefor, they will last longer than a gas engine, with both engines having the right maitenance. and there is nothing really to 'tune up' on a diesel. the glow plugs, air filter and oil changes are all you even need worry about on a diesel engine. its compression is the key, and with proper maitenance of those things, that will be ok too.

and calculuso, your comment about being stuck behind a diesel really sticks a thorn in my side. i have to ask, is it ok to complain about the smell of a diesel, yet drive a gas vehicle that isnt as efficient, wears out sooner, has poorer fuel economy, takes more natural resources to produce its fuel, and when out of tune, produces more harmful emissons than a diesel? just because you cant 'smell' a gas vehicle does not mean that it is better for the environment or your lungs. i think you have to think big picture here, and part of that picture is that if diesels were more welcome in north america (as they are in europe and the rest of the world) we would likely have more stringent regulations about the quality of our diesel fuel, as well as diesel engine choices, and well, a more stringent air pollution policy in general. its flippant comments like that that set the diesel movement backwards 2 steps. a poorly running diesel can be just as foul as a poorly running gasoline engine. the unfortunate thing is that a lot of buses, trucks and other big vehicles arent subjected to the same emission controls as regular gas vehicles. that may change in 2008 when the new diesel fuel requirements come out, but for now, its up in the air.

there is a lot of misinformation in the previous posts, and i dont have a lot of time to educate you on it. i'm pro diesel, of course, but to argue against it without accurate information is just reckless.

i say that if you drive ~25 to 30k a year, and plan on hanging onto the car for the long run, the diesel is the best bet. not only will it perform comparably to the 1.8t, it will also give you the benefits i mentioned above.

if you want to know more about the tdi, go to tdiclub.com, or you can pm me.

rico

[11mile]

Originally Posted by ricosuave

i say that if you drive ~25 to 30k a year, and plan on hanging onto the car for the long run, the diesel is the best bet. not only will it perform comparably to the 1.8t, it will also give you the benefits i mentioned above.
rico

Hrm... With regards to performance i stock TDI vs 1.8T, there is no question that 1.8T>TDI.

Lightly modified, they are comparable... Easy to get mad torque out of a diesel engine.

Heavily modified, 1.8T >> TDI, dollar for dollar.

Performance is ok in a TDI, but not really that comparable to the 1.8T. If you're talking about longevity, then you're right.

[Bill Bumface]

Hahahah comparable in performance? TDI's are something like 18 second cars. SLOW.

1.8T's are 15 second cars.

[11mile]

12.9s with 110 mph trap speed with a garret GT28RS (slicks, minus reaction time).

There's a couple of crazy guys on 'tex with built 1.8T motors that make 110hp per cylinder.

[calculoso]

Originally Posted by ricosuave

and calculuso, your comment about being stuck behind a diesel really sticks a thorn in my side. i have to ask, is it ok to complain about the smell of a diesel, yet drive a gas vehicle that isnt as efficient, wears out sooner, has poorer fuel economy, takes more natural resources to produce its fuel, and when out of tune, produces more harmful emissons than a diesel? just because you cant 'smell' a gas vehicle does not mean that it is better for the environment or your lungs.

Funny. I don't see the "better or worse for the environment" as being anything to do with my point.

My comment was that Diesel vehicles stink. I don't see you denying this, you're just trying to justify it.

More diesel vehicles means more stinky air. You may want to drive through it and smell it all the time, but *I* do not.

Until the smell issue is solved (good luck with that), diesels will not be an option to me. I'll look to a more efficient gas vehicle, possibly a hybrid if they weren't so expensive, instead.

The "Diesel movement", as you put it, is shooting itself in the foot before it even starts. Don't give people reasons to buy something else, even if it is for as "flippant" of a reason as smell.

[ken0042]

Originally Posted by calculoso

Until the smell issue is solved (good luck with that), diesels will not be an option to me.

Agreed. I often find myself changing lanes to avoid being behind a diesel vehicle. Other times I won't let a vehicle change lanes in front of me if I see that it's diesel. (ie, I won't go out of my way to make a gap for them.)

It all comes back to my original flippant comment; that if diesel owners don't mind the smell, the tailpipe should be routed to the front of the vehicle. Maybe not realistic because of CO and CO2, but it still boils down to the fact that you aren't the one having to smell it.

[Sylvanfan]

I can't say that I've had to change lanes to avoid a VW TDI because the smell was terrible. I also ride a bike to work quite often in the summer and take my dogs for nightly walks, and can't say I've ever had a VW TDI go by and leave me holding my breath and looking for some clean air to breathe. That type of thing has occurred with an old bus that's been poorly maintained, or some freak vehichle from the 80's, and the worst offenders in residential area's are fullsize domestic trucks with their monster deisel engines can create some nasty fumes. But I think that the small TDI engine shouldn't neccessarily be grouped with those other engines. I do think that if some stricter regulations were put in place that yes the engines and the fuel would be made cleaner (although there will be a price increase to consumers).

[Bill Bumface]

Originally Posted by 11mile

12.9s with 110 mph trap speed with a garret GT28RS (slicks, minus reaction time).

There's a couple of crazy guys on 'tex with built 1.8T motors that make 110hp per cylinder.

Nice, but that is very very far from stock