Does Canada own Arctic waters?

[Cowperson]

Harper's comments regarding the Arctic are getting play in the USA. Do we own Arctic waters?

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/11057794/

Cowperson

[ernie]

It depends on how big our boats are.....

[BlackEleven]

I wonder how the US would act if the situation were reversed -- if Canada did not recognize US claims to a particular body of water ...

[Cowperson]

Originally Posted by BlackEleven

I wonder how the US would act if the situation were reversed -- if Canada did not recognize US claims to a particular body of water ...

Haven't there been disputes over the Grand Banks?

Cowperson

[ken0042]

Isn't water within a certain number of miles of a country's land considered to be their teritorial waters?

I don't see why the US can't simply request a permanent arrangement with us to use our waters; just as they did when manning the DEW line in past decades.

[Canada 02]

this might be a useful link to UN Oceans and Law of the Sea:

http://www.un.org/Depts/los/index.htm

http://www.un.org/Depts/los/LEGISLAT...N_1996_Act.pdf

some where in all the legalese, there may be a relavent tidbit

Continental shelf

17. (1) The continental shelf of Canada is the seabed and subsoil of the submarine areas, including those of the exclusive economic zone of Canada, that extend beyond the territorial sea of Canada throughout the natural prolongation of the land territory of Canada:
(a) subject to subparagraphs (b) and (c), to the outer edge of the continental margin, determined in the manner under international law that results in the maximum extent of the continental shelf of Canada, the outer edge of the continental margin being the submerged prolongation of the land mass of Canada consisting of the seabed and subsoil of the shelf, the slope and the rise, but not including the deep ocean floor with its oceanic ridges or its subsoil;
(b) to a distance of 200 nautical miles from the baselines of the territorial sea of Canada where the outer edge of the continental margin does not extend up to that distance;

[BlackEleven]

(b) to a distance of 200 nautical miles from the baselines of the territorial sea of Canada where the outer edge of the continental margin does not extend up to that distance;

I was curious as to how the "baseline" was established.

From a wikipedia article regarding UNCLOS (United Nations Convention on Laws of the Sea):

The convention set the definition of Archipelagic States in Part IV, which also define how the state can draw its teritorial borders. A baseline is drawn between the outermost points of the outermost islands. All waters inside this baseline is described as Archipelagic Waters and are included as part of the state's territory. This baseline is also used to chart its territorial waters 12 nautical miles (22 km) from the baseline and EEZ 200 nautical miles (370 km) from the baseline.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_...Law_of_the_Sea

Wouldn't that suggest that the NW passage is part of Canadian waters?

[Thunderball]

They definitely aren't our waters if we don't assert sovereignty up there with air and sea patrols... leaving it alone essentially says we don't control it.

Archipelagic Zone should apply, but the US says its an International strait, which means, while it may be in our territory, it should be free for travel.

[ken0042]

The one thing that scares me a little; what if after we assert our rights up north, and the the US decides to assert their rights to their airspace.

Flights to and from Toronto would be a little longer, but flights to Mexico or the Caribbean would be horrible.

[Hack&Lube]

Exactly, if you don't exert and enforce your sovergnty with patrols, you can't catch the people infringing upon it.

For years Spanish fishing fleets have been gouging themselves on our depleted fish stocks off the East Coast because of this.

If you let the world walk all over you - the will.

[underGRADFlame]

Originally Posted by ken0042

The one thing that scares me a little; what if after we assert our rights up north, and the the US decides to assert their rights to their airspace.

Flights to and from Toronto would be a little longer, but flights to Mexico or the Caribbean would be horrible.

I think the whole point is, if you wan to travel it, let us know, don't sneak through give us a heads up. Those flights to Mexico have been planned and authorized by the FAA for months.

Good to see Harper is taking a stand against the US before all the hand holing and singing of kubyya(or what ever it is) starts...

[octothorp]

nevermind. fits better in the other thread.

[Bobblehead]

Originally Posted by ken0042

The one thing that scares me a little; what if after we assert our rights up north, and the the US decides to assert their rights to their airspace.

Flights to and from Toronto would be a little longer, but flights to Mexico or the Caribbean would be horrible.

And in a case of tit-for-tat, their flightpaths over NFLD to Great Britain would need to be adjusted, as well as Alaska flights.

Anything between the US & Canada could easily escalate. In this case I think we are just exercising rights that have been neglected. ALthough I don't look forward to paying for new icebreakers, I guess that is the cost.

[FlamesAllTheWay]

Our biggest claim to the arctic land and waters surrounding that land is the fact that for a few decades now we've maintained an Arctic Ranger patrol group. Basically, the military gives some of the locals free weapons and ammo that they use to 'protect our sovereignty' (and hunt for free) and they keep records of what they see, etc, during their hunting expeditions. The hope is that when the day comes and we find ourselves in an international court over this issue these records will help assert our claim to the arctic territory (as no other country has anything like them I believe). These coupled with some of the other stuff we do like fly a jet up there every few years, etc. However, unless Harper actually does something about it we don't have any sort of military might to back up our claim as of now.

I guess one time during one of the arctic patrols one of the rangers saw what he thought to be a submarine surfaced through the ice but when he brought a larger party out to confirm this it was gone ...

[Cowperson]

Originally Posted by FlamesAllTheWay

Our biggest claim to the arctic land and waters surrounding that land is the fact that for a few decades now we've maintained an Arctic Ranger patrol group. Basically, the military gives some of the locals free weapons and ammo that they use to 'protect our sovereignty' (and hunt for free) and they keep records of what they see, etc, during their hunting expeditions. The hope is that when the day comes and we find ourselves in an international court over this issue these records will help assert our claim to the arctic territory (as no other country has anything like them I believe). These coupled with some of the other stuff we do like fly a jet up there every few years, etc. However, unless Harper actually does something about it we don't have any sort of military might to back up our claim as of now.

I guess one time during one of the arctic patrols one of the rangers saw what he thought to be a submarine surfaced through the ice but when he brought a larger party out to confirm this it was gone ...

I'll have to ask my brother-in-law . . . . . he was the military guy snowmobiling all around Baffin Island and places like that with the Rangers, now recently retired.

His journals and maps make for some interesting reading . . . . . he has the best gloves you'll ever see for snowmobiling when its a billion degrees below zero.

Cowperson

[Maritime Q-Scout]

guys you're missing one key issue

the above documents say "waters" and not "Arctic waters" two different things

[FlamesAllTheWay]

Originally Posted by Cowperson

I'll have to ask my brother-in-law . . . . . he was the military guy snowmobiling all around Baffin Island and places like that with the Rangers, now recently retired.

His journals and maps make for some interesting reading . . . . . he has the best gloves you'll ever see for snowmobiling when its a billion degrees below zero.

Cowperson

Yeah that would definitely be a very interesting job.

Speaking of a billion degrees below zero, when the Rangers are out on patrol and need to go to the bathroom they just go in their pants cause it freezes instantly. Not exactly sure how they deal with #2's though...

This is all coming from a really great article I read about this whole issue awhile back. Can't seem to locate it online though.

[FlamesAddiction]

Originally Posted by Thunderball

They definitely aren't our waters if we don't assert sovereignty up there with air and sea patrols... leaving it alone essentially says we don't control it.

Archipelagic Zone should apply, but the US says its an International strait, which means, while it may be in our territory, it should be free for travel.

But the question of whether it is ours must be answered before we exert power in the area, otherwise we are just pirates.

Being able to patrol an area doesn't mean anything. Many areas in the world are relatively unpatrolled, but we still recognize them as under another country's power. Why should Canada not be given the same benefit?

Anyway, I was going to post the BBC story. Even though it's a little redundant, I went through the trouble of getting the link - so here:

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/americas/4652746.stm

Harper gets some points from me on this one.