Let's discuss people gaming the system with chq's

[curves2000]

I have been thinking of some things lately and it has to do with the volume of people within my social circle, their friends and clients/customers who appear to be gaming various different systems for their financial benefit.

I have come across a lot of people who are on AISH (Alberta Income for Severely Handicapped), Workers comp, short term or long term disability through work, various federal programs.

I am fully aware that people need some of these programs for when people are going through tough times and that we as a society need a social safety net. We sometimes never know what people are truly going through and I get that. I do, 100%

I am not even talking about the people who, for the lack of a better word, refuse to get a job and just collect welfare for years. I am talking about profitable business owners on income support payments, corporate and government employee's who have played the disability card, gone through the minor steps and go back to work for a handful of months then back on disability again.

Workers compensation claimants who have some minor issue with a shoulder, knee, elbow or something and than claim they can't work and are rehabbing this injury forever. Not even Bobby Orr rehabbed his knee's this much.

Recently a former co-worker I know in Quebec threw a little party for his friends once he got onto their version of AISH. He had tried and bragged about it for years. Finally success.

I am doing decent challenging hikes with people on disability claims for knee injuries who are office workers. People who's boat and mansion I have been to in Kelowna are getting chq's for what reason, I don't know.

Clients picking me up in new Alfa Romeo cars, enroute to the race track to lay down cash on their racehorses, yes, that's plural.

There is a brazen and confident way people have indicated these things. It's become culturally acceptable to do this and very open too.

Anybody else coming across this in their workplace or social circle/customer base?

[undercoverbrother]

No

Delete

[Harry Lime]

From what you described, these are not people in line at Walmart, or the ones people complain about only during an election cycle, but people from 6 and 7 figure incomes who are 'gaming' the system, which comes across sounding a lot like fraud.

If someone works for decades at a physical job and goes on some kind of paid leave for chronic pain, or a high stress job for anxiety, I'm not likely to question it too far. There is probably some legitimacy. If someone can afford to roll up in an Alpha Romero or brag about multiple race horses, that screams some kind of golden parachute that has been created for them.

[RogerWilco]

Originally Posted by curves2000

I have been thinking of some things lately and it has to do with the volume of people within my social circle, their friends and clients/customers who appear to be gaming various different systems for their financial benefit.

I have come across a lot of people who are on AISH (Alberta Income for Severely Handicapped), Workers comp, short term or long term disability through work, various federal programs.

I am fully aware that people need some of these programs for when people are going through tough times and that we as a society need a social safety net. We sometimes never know what people are truly going through and I get that. I do, 100%

I am not even talking about the people who, for the lack of a better word, refuse to get a job and just collect welfare for years. I am talking about profitable business owners on income support payments, corporate and government employee's who have played the disability card, gone through the minor steps and go back to work for a handful of months then back on disability again.

Workers compensation claimants who have some minor issue with a shoulder, knee, elbow or something and than claim they can't work and are rehabbing this injury forever. Not even Bobby Orr rehabbed his knee's this much.

Recently a former co-worker I know in Quebec threw a little party for his friends once he got onto their version of AISH. He had tried and bragged about it for years. Finally success.

I am doing decent challenging hikes with people on disability claims for knee injuries who are office workers. People who's boat and mansion I have been to in Kelowna are getting chq's for what reason, I don't know.

Clients picking me up in new Alfa Romeo cars, enroute to the race track to lay down cash on their racehorses, yes, that's plural.

There is a brazen and confident way people have indicated these things. It's become culturally acceptable to do this and very open too.

Anybody else coming across this in their workplace or social circle/customer base?

You need a new circle of associates. I have only know of two people in my entire life that have admitted to collecting any of these things. One was a quadriplegic and the other has a serious head/brain injury from a car accident. So both completely legit and still embarrassed to admit they need help. If you are in a circle that thinks this is acceptable, find a new circle. I guarantee that the vast majority of people out there do not find this to be acceptable. I find it odd that the people you know would even admit to this sort of scam. Most people would be ashamed.

[MoneyGuy]

You need better friends.

[GGG]

I think you have an obligation to blow the whistle. When you talk about a culture of acceptability you are currently enabling it.

Now I think you are likely not fully in the know on a lot of disability cases like the guy on aish celebrating he is finally on Asih would make sense in the legitimate use scenario as well and you diagnosing severity of disabilities of other people is pretty gross.

But if people are admitting their fraud to you you have to report.

[CliffFletcher]

Originally Posted by curves2000

There is a brazen and confident way people have indicated these things. It's become culturally acceptable to do this and very open too.

It is a cultural thing. Some communities/social circles consider the government (and insurance providers, etc) to be faceless and infinitely-resourced entities that should be exploited for everything you can get. EI, AISH, workers’ comp, etc. is all just money for the taking, guilt-free.

A former co-worker has expertly used mat leave and short-term disability to only work for a total of 12 months in the last 5 years. She boasts that as someone raised in Nova Scotia, she knows the eligibility, qualifications, and duration of every benefits program (public and employee) available, and has no qualms about exploiting them to maximize her personal benefit. She even puts an ideological slant on it, saying it’s a socialist approach to life.

[PepsiFree]

It’s always that darn socialism’s fault, somehow!

[fotze2]

With cheques?

[Fuzz]

Originally Posted by fotze2

With cheques?

Socialists stole the vowels.

[PepsiFree]

Originally Posted by Fuzz

Socialists stole the vowels.

They were rightly dispersed to words that needed them more.

[sketchyt]

Anecdotal evidence is the best evidence.

[Matata]

I know someone who worked at Alpha House for years (a homelessness prevention program) and they only ever dealt with one guy who was blatantly and aggressively trying to game the system. He'd always be trying to squeeze as much out of the system as he could, working as many programs as possible, but would turn around and complain about how they had to spend $10k on a used luxury sedan with high upkeep costs. Pretty much every one else was too incompetent to really game the system.

You really have be in that sweet spot of being smart enough to navigate the system while also being completely bereft of any sense of personal dignity. Typically one invalidates the other as a personality trait.

[Jason14h]

Don’t they teach this course in grade 12 in the Maritimes and parts of Quebec already

[Cappy]

This discussion somewhat coincides with my line of work (employee benefits; government benefits; WCB, disability benefits; some tax issues) and i would admit that, on the whole, the systems in place leave far more eligible people outside of the system than ineligible people in.

WCB is notoriously a frustrating experience for any injured worker. I always tell any client that WCB wants to get you off WCB as quickly as possible and truly does not care about your health.

Disability benefits are similar. Short-term disability can be relatively easy to get, but it was created that way, as a way for people to take. LTD? the definitions are overly restrictive to qualify and if you do get it, and there is any suspicion of fraud, then providers are certainly not hesitant to send a PI to spy on you.

With respect to government benefits (EI, AISH), there are certainly people that know the rules (qualifications for number of hours etc.); however, there is a push and pull here. These benefits are needed, and the system has to be set up to get the benefits to the people as quickly as possible. I'll admit Service Canada does not do much to check EI recipients are actively applying to work, but it's a system that you have to pay into, so I don't think its as frustrating.

With AISH, what is the monthly payment now? I think for someone with 3 kids, its between $2,000-$3,000 a month. I couldn't imagine living comfortably on that. Also, it is designed for people with less than $100,000 in assets (inc. spouse). You want to live near the poverty line just to not work?

On the other hand, in my personal anecdotal experience, the two areas that i see the most questionable activity is personal injury law (and insurance in general) and tax avoidance. Without making this post overly long, these two areas are rife with people maximizing their benefits without justification.

I'll let you guess the type of people who take advantage of these systems the most. Hint, it's usually not the ones applying for the benefits discussed above.

[Cowboy89]

Originally Posted by Matata

You really have be in that sweet spot of being smart enough to navigate the system while also being completely bereft of any sense of personal dignity. Typically one invalidates the other as a personality trait.

This. If you're smart enough to game the system, you're probably smart enough to make more money doing legitimate work. It also probably takes as much time as a full time job initially to plan it out and strategize it to that degree, all to be able to not have to work that hard later. Again the same kind of skills that could be used to a higher degree of benefit on legitimate pursuits.

The sweet spot is probably someone intelligent who values their free time above their own dignity so they make less than they could have by claiming against multiple programs to avoid having to work too much. Or someone who has something in their job/personal history that makes them essentially unemployable in a similar job or at similar compensation levels should they have to move on. You see this frequently with awful employees 'going on stress leave' precisely before having to go on a pip, etc. They are incentivized to hold on technically by whatever means necessary, dignity be damned.

I think whenever there are benefits there will be people who will try to take advantage, regardless. I just hope that vastly more people are being helped in legitimate situations than taking advantage.

[PepsiFree]

Originally Posted by Cappy

This discussion somewhat coincides with my line of work (employee benefits; government benefits; WCB, disability benefits; some tax issues) and i would admit that, on the whole, the systems in place leave far more eligible people outside of the system than ineligible people in.

WCB is notoriously a frustrating experience for any injured worker. I always tell any client that WCB wants to get you off WCB as quickly as possible and truly does not care about your health.

Disability benefits are similar. Short-term disability can be relatively easy to get, but it was created that way, as a way for people to take. LTD? the definitions are overly restrictive to qualify and if you do get it, and there is any suspicion of fraud, then providers are certainly not hesitant to send a PI to spy on you.

With respect to government benefits (EI, AISH), there are certainly people that know the rules (qualifications for number of hours etc.); however, there is a push and pull here. These benefits are needed, and the system has to be set up to get the benefits to the people as quickly as possible. I'll admit Service Canada does not do much to check EI recipients are actively applying to work, but it's a system that you have to pay into, so I don't think its as frustrating.

With AISH, what is the monthly payment now? I think for someone with 3 kids, its between $2,000-$3,000 a month. I couldn't imagine living comfortably on that. Also, it is designed for people with less than $100,000 in assets (inc. spouse). You want to live near the poverty line just to not work?

On the other hand, in my personal anecdotal experience, the two areas that i see the most questionable activity is personal injury law (and insurance in general) and tax avoidance. Without making this post overly long, these two areas are rife with people maximizing their benefits without justification.

I'll let you guess the type of people who take advantage of these systems the most. Hint, it's usually not the ones applying for the benefits discussed above.

Agree with all of this. Tax avoidance or “tax strategy” as they like to call it is a far greater burden that benefits far better-off individuals than a program like AISH or WCB could ever even come close to touching. There are entire industry verticals dedicated to it. There are businesses solely structured around helping entrepreneurs and wealthy individuals get passports in low-tax jurisdictions and rework their financial profiles so that they can live/work in one place and pay a fraction of the tax percentage that everyone else does.

But as a society we’re conditioned to punch down and say “thank you” to the people punching down on us.

Yeah, it’s annoying when Gary goes on stress leave for the 2nd time in a year instead of just quitting, mostly because they never fill behind that position so on a work-level that punishes everyone else. But financially? 10,000 Garys are still a drop in the bucket.

[bc-chris]

i had a customer a number of years ago that was making an injury claim. it had some validity to it initially, but once the $ started coming he definitely abused the system. i guess the insurance company had some suspicions about him and had a PI follow him and got some pretty incriminating pics of him. i think it was a shoulder injury he had - but then the PI got pics of him packing boxes around, golfing, etc.
i'm not sure what exactly happened in the end, but i know his payments were stopped immediately. i don't know if he ever had to repay any money.

Originally Posted by Cappy

This discussion somewhat coincides with my line of work (employee benefits; government benefits; WCB, disability benefits; some tax issues) and i would admit that, on the whole, the systems in place leave far more eligible people outside of the system than ineligible people in.


WCB is notoriously a frustrating experience for any injured worker. I always tell any client that WCB wants to get you off WCB as quickly as possible and truly does not care about your health.
Disability benefits are similar. Short-term disability can be relatively easy to get, but it was created that way, as a way for people to take. LTD? the definitions are overly restrictive to qualify and if you do get it, and there is any suspicion of fraud, then providers are certainly not hesitant to send a PI to spy on you.
...

i had a work injury years ago (30 years ago i think?). i was working in a restaurant and cut my right hand bad. 20+ stitches, nerves and tendons severed. wcb was excellent with my case (it was a short term case - and as cappy mentioned that can be easier to get). i remember my contact lady being very nice. my injury happened at a summer job so i contacted her at the end of august to tell her that since i would be attending university in september that my hours would have dropped to part-time and so the payments from wcb should probably be adjusted. she was shocked that i called to tell her that... i blame my parents for instilling me with a 'moral compass' - ha!

[you&me]

Originally Posted by Cappy

This discussion somewhat coincides with my line of work (employee benefits; government benefits; WCB, disability benefits; some tax issues) and i would admit that, on the whole, the systems in place leave far more eligible people outside of the system than ineligible people in.

WCB is notoriously a frustrating experience for any injured worker. I always tell any client that WCB wants to get you off WCB as quickly as possible and truly does not care about your health.

Disability benefits are similar. Short-term disability can be relatively easy to get, but it was created that way, as a way for people to take. LTD? the definitions are overly restrictive to qualify and if you do get it, and there is any suspicion of fraud, then providers are certainly not hesitant to send a PI to spy on you.

With respect to government benefits (EI, AISH), there are certainly people that know the rules (qualifications for number of hours etc.); however, there is a push and pull here. These benefits are needed, and the system has to be set up to get the benefits to the people as quickly as possible. I'll admit Service Canada does not do much to check EI recipients are actively applying to work, but it's a system that you have to pay into, so I don't think its as frustrating.

With AISH, what is the monthly payment now? I think for someone with 3 kids, its between $2,000-$3,000 a month. I couldn't imagine living comfortably on that. Also, it is designed for people with less than $100,000 in assets (inc. spouse). You want to live near the poverty line just to not work?

On the other hand, in my personal anecdotal experience, the two areas that i see the most questionable activity is personal injury law (and insurance in general) and tax avoidance. Without making this post overly long, these two areas are rife with people maximizing their benefits without justification.

I'll let you guess the type of people who take advantage of these systems the most. Hint, it's usually not the ones applying for the benefits discussed above.

This all seems like a heck of a long way from having lakefront mansions, boats and multiple race horses.

For sure Curves needs better friends, but more context would certainly help to understand what's going on here. Like, are these people gaming the system on behalf of their employees? Sort of like the people you heard taking advantage of the COVID employee benefit programs, but with AISH, EI, etc? (you can tell I'm a veritable mastermind when it comes to gaming these programs )