Listen tot he Arab Street...they ARE LOSING!!!

[HOZ]

On Friday, the allegedly explosive "Arab street" finally exploded, in the largest demonstration against al-Qa'eda or its affiliates seen in the Middle East. "Zarqawi," shouted 200,000 Jordanians, "from Amman we say to you, you are a coward!" Also "the enemy of Allah" - which, for a jihadist, isn't what they call on Broadway a money review.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/opinion/m.../22/do2202.xml

[Bobblehead]

THAT is the only way terrorism will ever be curbed. GWB can invade every country in the middle east, but rempant terrorism will continue until the terrorist organizations are shunned by their peer groups that they recruit from.

Hopefully these sort of demonstrations can spread to other islamic countries.

[Bend it like Bourgeois]

I wouldn't take that as a sign anyone is losing. Demonstrations in Jordon don't mean much. If they start chanting in Iraq, then maybe we'll be on to something. Maybe.

[Cowperson]

Originally Posted by Bend it like Bourgeois

I wouldn't take that as a sign anyone is losing. Demonstrations in Jordon don't mean much. If they start chanting in Iraq, then maybe we'll be on to something. Maybe.

How about millions voting in Iraq in spite of very direct death threats? With the third election coming up in a few weeks and now millions of Sunni's joining in.

Same thing.

I'm a fan of Al-Jazeera these days, as I said in another thread, given they're moving away from supporting these clowns and giving more of the straight poop to the Muslim masses . . . . . and that has been illuminating for an immature culture, a region that's badly needed a fork stuck in it. Time to grow up and look in the mirror.

I've said before that the Americans are actually gaining ground not through any particular brilliance on their part but because their opponent is more incompentent than they are . . . . . the biggest mistake these terrorist guys are making is blowing up the very people they claim to be freeing, losing the battle for hearts and minds even as the carnage continues. Zarqawi has already been reduced to supporting 20% of the population and declaring war on 80%, #####es and Kurds.

Some comments in a Washington Post story just after the Jordan bombings:

Last year, in a letter to bin Laden that was intercepted by the U.S. military, Zarqawi pledged his loyalty and changed the name of his Iraq-based Monotheism and Jihad network to al Qaeda in Iraq. But he also has squabbled with other al Qaeda leaders over tactics, strategy and fundraising.

In July, al Qaeda's deputy leader, Ayman Zawahiri, wrote a 16-page letter to Zarqawi that gently scolded him for kidnapping Arabs, killing rivals and sponsoring indiscriminate attacks that resulted in the deaths of innocent Muslims.

"The strongest weapon that the holy warriors enjoy is popular support from the Muslim masses," Zawahiri wrote. "In the absence of this popular support, the Islamic warrior movement would be crushed in the shadows, far from the masses who are distracted and fearful."

The U.S. government and several European intelligence agencies have concluded that the letter is genuine, although some independent researchers have expressed doubts about its authenticity.

Other erstwhile allies of Zarqawi have expressed similar misgivings about his approach.

Abu Mohammed Maqdisi, a radical Jordanian cleric who became Zarqawi's mentor when both were imprisoned in the late 1990s, said in August that Zarqawi was hurting their shared cause by launching suicide attacks that often killed Muslim women and children "but barely one or two occupier Americans."

Maqdisi, also known as Isam Mohammad Taher Barqawi, said Zarqawi was making a serious tactical mistake by targeting #####e Muslims. #####es make up a majority of the population in Iraq, but Zarqawi, a Sunni, regularly denounces them as apostates.

"I am not ashamed or embarrassed at all to say that I do not sanction it, support it or approve it," Maqdisi told al-Jazeera television in July. "You blow up a #####e mosque and the #####es blow up a Sunni mosque and the circle of conflict shifts from fighting the occupier enemy. It becomes communal fighting between two factions who should be in one camp against the occupier."

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn...111201201.html

As I said before, obsessing about daily body counts is a mistake of Vietnam that opponents of this war shouldn't be making. Iraqi's might not love Americans, but they're starting to hate Al-Zarqawi more . . . . and that is becoming true in the region as well, hence the Jordanian protests. . . . . and maybe you can give some thanks to Al-Jazeerah and other Muslim media for that. Finally.

Cowperson

[ernie]

Funny you should mention al-Jazeera. A leaked memo from No.10 suggests bush advocated bombing the al-Jazeera HQ in Qatar. Of course this is all "a source said this" etc. etc. etc.

http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/tm_obje...name_page.html

[Bend it like Bourgeois]

Iraqi's might not love Americans, but they're starting to hate Al-Zarqawi more . . . . and that is becoming true in the region as well, hence the Jordanian protests.

Hating Al-Zarqawi more isn't enough. Neither is voting. I'm not suggesting both aren't positive, or that the people of Iraq couldn't put a damper on the violence by organizing against it. All I'd suggest is that this is way too early to start saying anyone is losing.

At the end of the day the terrorists aren't losing much by losing the hearts and minds of Iraqis and ceratinly not of Jordanians.

As long as they can make life miserable for everyone, and keep the US spending money and lives, they're winning.

[BrownOne]

The killing of innocient people is wrong, but George Bush is the reason for all the problems. Get rid of that monkey, and things will be better.

Jordan is nothing, they wont stop anything, its the places like Iraq that can really stop it, and they wont, and they shouldn't. They got invaded there country got taken over by the the Americans and there Christian Leader George Bush, trying to make everyone to become Christians and kill the Muslim Religon. George Bush the real terrorist.

[Cowperson]

Originally Posted by ernie

Funny you should mention al-Jazeera. A leaked memo from No.10 suggests bush advocated bombing the al-Jazeera HQ in Qatar. Of course this is all "a source said this" etc. etc. etc.

http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/tm_objectid=16397937%26method=full%26siteid=94762% 26headline=exclusive%2d%2dbush%2dplot%2dto%2dbomb% 2dhis%2darab%2dally-name_page.html

Well, I guess its a good thing they left it standing then.

Seriously, destroying a television headquarters in this day and age doesn't put them off the air . . . . it just inconveniences them and makes the martyrs so, frankly, the inference in an alleged conversation that "maybe we should blow up Al-Jazeerah" is probably just a joke.

Secondly, the Daily Mirror, rightly or wrongly, is and has been stridently anti-Bush from day one and does not have possession of a memo. It has relied on an account provided it of what the memo supposedly contains.

Third, I'd love to see some of the ghoulish humour that might have passed between Churchill, Stalin and Roosevelt in their private conversations when they were dividing up the world in the 1940's . . . . but those are generally still classified and unavailable for public viewing as well.

As long as they can make life miserable for everyone, and keep the US spending money and lives, they're winning.

Uh, winning what?

If you said the Sunni insurgency - which is what it is - is pressuring #####es for political concessions, then I'd believe that and I would believe they're getting their point across and making some progress in that regard . . . . but that still just means they're eventually agreeing to a democratic process.

If you're saying Al-Queda is winning something then you're wrong. They've given up on 80% of the population and they're losing the other 20% pretty shortly. Some have speculated that Al-Zarqawi will be killed by Sunni's in the end.

And yes, the number of people participating in an election under threat of death from a group allegedly working on their behalf is an indication of which whey they are leaning . . . . . just as Al-Zarqawi's supporters were warning him of in the quotes I provided above.

Cowperson

[ernie]

Originally Posted by Cowperson

Firstly....secondly....thirdly...

Hence the "from a source" and the etc etc etc in the original post.

[4X4]

Originally Posted by BrownOne

The killing of innocient people is wrong, but George Bush is the reason for all the problems. Get rid of that monkey, and things will be better.

Jordan is nothing, they wont stop anything, its the places like Iraq that can really stop it, and they wont, and they shouldn't. They got invaded there country got taken over by the the Americans and there Christian Leader George Bush, trying to make everyone to become Christians and kill the Muslim Religon. George Bush the real terrorist.

Did you think of this all by yourself, or did Puff Daddy tell you so?

[Igottago]

Originally Posted by Bobblehead

THAT is the only way terrorism will ever be curbed. GWB can invade every country in the middle east, but rempant terrorism will continue until the terrorist organizations are shunned by their peer groups that they recruit from.

Hopefully these sort of demonstrations can spread to other islamic countries.

I agree, I've often thought this. So far it has only been small pockets of the community speaking up, hopefully events like this will spark a more widespread outcry in the muslim community and people will have more courage to defend their religion from extremists. I think this is the only sure counter-terror method that will work long term. GWB is only adding fuel to the fire. While we're on the subject, maybe more christians can protest that jack ass too. It all needs to come from within.

[greyshep]

Originally Posted by BrownOne

The killing of innocient people is wrong, but George Bush is the reason for all the problems. Get rid of that monkey, and things will be better.

Jordan is nothing, they wont stop anything, its the places like Iraq that can really stop it, and they wont, and they shouldn't. They got invaded there country got taken over by the the Americans and there Christian Leader George Bush, trying to make everyone to become Christians and kill the Muslim Religon. George Bush the real terrorist.

[Daradon]

I don't think it's far fetched to say that Bush suggested taking out the al-Jazeera HQ in Qatar. They did hit the offices in both Kabul and Baghdad...

As far as the thread main topic goes, this is a very good thing. It's really the only way any 'liberation' will succeed.

You can't convince a country or culture to abandon a leader or form of government, especially through force. They have to want to do it themselves. Saddam's regime was a terrible one, but invading the counrty was not the answer. The responsibility was up to the people. True it wasn't going to be easy as he did have them under an iron fist, and yes they needed help, but there had to be a better way.

It was the crowds in Serbia that ousted Milosevic, not the smart bombs.

When has invading a counrty to change the regime worked in modern history?

All in all it's good news though from a region that has ad way too much bad news.

[tjinaz]

You can't convince a country or culture to abandon a leader or form of government, especially through force. They have to want to do it themselves.

When has invading a counrty to change the regime worked in modern history?


Tell the Germans and Japanese that.

[RougeUnderoos]

Originally Posted by tjinaz

You can't convince a country or culture to abandon a leader or form of government, especially through force. They have to want to do it themselves.

When has invading a counrty to change the regime worked in modern history?


Tell the Germans and Japanese that.

Tell the Germans and Japanese what?

[Mike F]

Originally Posted by Cowperson

Uh, winning what?

If you said the Sunni insurgency - which is what it is - is pressuring #####es for political concessions, then I'd believe that and I would believe they're getting their point across and making some progress in that regard . . . . but that still just means they're eventually agreeing to a democratic process.

If you're saying Al-Queda is winning something then you're wrong. They've given up on 80% of the population and they're losing the other 20% pretty shortly. Some have speculated that Al-Zarqawi will be killed by Sunni's in the end.

And yes, the number of people participating in an election under threat of death from a group allegedly working on their behalf is an indication of which whey they are leaning . . . . . just as Al-Zarqawi's supporters were warning him of in the quotes I provided above.

Cowperson

As you said, whether you think Al Qaeda-Iraq is winning or not depends on what goal you say they are trying to achieve.

What the US admin told us their goal was going to be was to run up the body count to try to make the US lose its nerve and run the way they did in Vietnam and Somalia.

If that is their goal -- to keep Iraq destabalized and make the US pull out prematurely -- can you really say they're losing?

The "Bring Our Boys Home" movement is gaining more and more public support in the lead up to some significant US elections, and is starting to gain some support among some influential potiticians too.

And if US troops pull out before the coalition Iraqi gov't can take care of itself, the whole country could easily blow up in a way quite satisfactory to the terrorists.

[JohnnyFlame]

Everyday the Iraqis armed forces are becoming better trained. In recent operations they have performed well. A combination of they becoming a good fighting force and the citizens becoming more disgusted with their own countrymen than the Americans has to be working to their advantage. All of matter of timing I would think--Bush has only so much political capital and they will have to be showing either the situation coming under control, the Iraqis taking over, or some troops heading home for the Americans to stay a whole lot longer.

I still think the Americans have the ace in the hole in both Afghanistan and in Iraq. There are strong factions who don't want to go back to the horsemanure they had before. The Kurds won't accept that now and neither would the #####es. I would think that all the insurgency could win is a civil war and in Afghanistan they still can muster the support of the warlords who don't want the Taliban back in power.

Wouldn't a default plan be to just arm the Kurds and #####es to the teeth and isolate the Sunni's. Any action by them then gets a tit for tat reaction from whichever other group they attack. Most of the oil would then not be under Sunni control so yeah methinks that would be a decent fallback move.

[4X4]

Originally Posted by JohnnyFlame

Wouldn't a default plan be to just arm the Kurds and #####es to the teeth and isolate the Sunni's. Any action by them then gets a tit for tat reaction from whichever other group they attack. Most of the oil would then not be under Sunni control so yeah methinks that would be a decent fallback move.

Those tactics are what helped spawn Osama & his minion of "religious fundamentalists", I mean terrorists.

[tjinaz]

Both Germany and Japan had democracy forced upon them on the tip of an American Bayonet. Americans wrote the current Japanese constitution. Look how they turned out. Granted there are ideological and cultural differences but there were big diffences between Germany and Japan as well. Only time will tell how Iraq turns out. Even if it goes well I am sure the left will find a reason other than GWB why the Middle East suddenly went democratic. There is so much spin on both sides I wonder if there is only one truth anymore.


http://www.canadafreepress.com/2005/rubin082005.htm

[RougeUnderoos]

Originally Posted by tjinaz

Both Germany and Japan had democracy forced upon them on the tip of an American Bayonet. Americans wrote the current Japanese constitution. Look how they turned out. Granted there are ideological and cultural differences but there were big diffences between Germany and Japan as well. Only time will tell how Iraq turns out. Even if it goes well I am sure the left will find a reason other than GWB why the Middle East suddenly went democratic. There is so much spin on both sides I wonder if there is only one truth anymore.


http://www.canadafreepress.com/2005/rubin082005.htm

There are a couple differences between the end of WWII and what is going on in Iraq. They are subtle, but they are differences.