Veteran Leadership and Grit

[The Original FFIV]

Apologies if this has been covered under another thread but I think we can point to these two intangibles as the reason for our struggles. When you look at the relative roster stability and incumbent coach, maybe those roster tweaks have left us with a void in these two areas.

It seems like we miss Engelland more than we thought we would. I believe he brought a real veteran calming influence to the room. Yes, his skills were in decline but giving him sheltered 3rd pair minutes didn’t hurt us. Couple that with the loss of Versteeg and that’s the loss of two veteran voices in a young dressing room. Yes, we’ve added solid character guys in Hamonic and Lazar (as well as the grizzled vet in Jagr) but I don’t see those guys having the demeanour that Engelland did.

In terms of grit, in addition to losing Engelland (who would hold opposing forwards accountable), we lost bouma and Chiasson who played tough hockey. We have also lost additional grit by playing Ferland higher up in the lineup where he is playing more of a scoring role instead of an energy role (where I think he is better suited). Playing Jagr/Lazar/Brouwer/Hamilton on the 4th line changes the dynamic as these are not crash and bang wingers who wear down the opposing D. Hathaway can be one of those guys but you need more than one on your team.

So while we debate the future of the coach or bemoan the lack of a true scoring rh shot in our top 6, the lack of vet leadership and a lineup lacking in grit might be what ails us the most right now. Yes, getting a top 6 rw allows Ferland to play down the lineup in a more physical role which may help, but until this happens, we need to see some leaders emerge and snap this team out of this funk.

[killer_carlson]

Am I the only one who thought Brouwer was supposed to be bringing grit into our roster?

[Wolfman]

Yeah, as an organization if you're counting on Stajan and Brouwer for leadership you better start looking elsewhere. Giordano is good but he needs help. Grit side of things it's quite pathetic actually, this is one of the softest Flames team in a long time and it pisses me off that they get pushed around so easily. If I was Treliving I would address both fast.

[bubbsy]

Originally Posted by killer_carlson

Am I the only one who thought Brouwer was supposed to be bringing grit into our roster?

He's old, he was brought in for grit, and they gave him an A.

The thread title fits everything that Brouwer was brought in for but isn't.

Brouwer sucks.

[ricardodw]

Originally Posted by The Original FFIV

Apologies if this has been covered under another thread but I think we can point to these two intangibles as the reason for our struggles. When you look at the relative roster stability and incumbent coach, maybe those roster tweaks have left us with a void in these two areas.

It seems like we miss Engelland more than we thought we would. I believe he brought a real veteran calming influence to the room. Yes, his skills were in decline but giving him sheltered 3rd pair minutes didn’t hurt us. Couple that with the loss of Versteeg and that’s the loss of two veteran voices in a young dressing room. Yes, we’ve added solid character guys in Hamonic and Lazar (as well as the grizzled vet in Jagr) but I don’t see those guys having the demeanour that Engelland did.

In terms of grit, in addition to losing Engelland (who would hold opposing forwards accountable), we lost bouma and Chiasson who played tough hockey. We have also lost additional grit by playing Ferland higher up in the lineup where he is playing more of a scoring role instead of an energy role (where I think he is better suited). Playing Jagr/Lazar/Brouwer/Hamilton on the 4th line changes the dynamic as these are not crash and bang wingers who wear down the opposing D. Hathaway can be one of those guys but you need more than one on your team.

So while we debate the future of the coach or bemoan the lack of a true scoring rh shot in our top 6, the lack of vet leadership and a lineup lacking in grit might be what ails us the most right now. Yes, getting a top 6 rw allows Ferland to play down the lineup in a more physical role which may help, but until this happens, we need to see some leaders emerge and snap this team out of this funk.

Great post... agree with most everything but Engelland did not play sheltered 3rd pairing minutes. He played 18:20 minutes for 81 games and was on the ice a lot at the end of games with the Flames up by 1 ie the definition of not sheltered.

[Strange Brew]

This is a great point. Flame apologists will say that Brouwer is a serviceable 4th liner but he was brought in to be so much more than that. Leadership, toughness and timely goals. It would be as if Monahan became no better than a 20 goal power play specialist.

This team needed Brouwer to be more than what he is. His brutal contract hamstrings them, no obvious replacements in the organization and not enough depth to make a trade for such a player. It is highly unfortunate.

Maybe they do miss Engelland. Or maybe they need to bring Iginla back so we can have a scapegoat.

[Kybb79]

Seems to me too many players from the core don't have that killer instinct that it takes to win big games. We need more players like Tkachuk who hate to lose. The Oilers and Ducks have a gritty core that's why they beat us. Im not saying we need guys to fight but guys who don't play scared and are looking forward to taking on the other teams top players.

[Jiri Hrdina]

I said it before and I'll re-state it here - I worry that the make-up of the team is just off. They aren't particularly fast, big, tough or skilled. They are stuck in the middle.
I would be looking at making some pretty material changes to the core to change both the make-up of the team from an ability point of view, but also to try to address the fact that I think personality wise they have too many guys that are simply a bit passive.

[2ArmBands]

Call me crazy but why on earth should what line you play on impact how you play physically?

Is this why I have never seen Monahan throw a hit?

[Machiavelli]

Zero identity, which is supposed to come from leadership which ultimately reflects on the coaching staff.

If you rattle off some of the best teams in the league right now, one can identify their playing style with a few words:

Tampa Bay: skilled forwards, great snipers
Vegas: ragtag group, excellent work ethic
Winnipeg: big, fast, skilled
Nashville: best D in the league; mobile and great puck-movers
Kings: amazing team D

Calgary Flames: inconsistent? That's not good.

[Igottago]

Originally Posted by Strange Brew

This is a great point. Flame apologists will say that Brouwer is a serviceable 4th liner but he was brought in to be so much more than that. Leadership, toughness and timely goals. It would be as if Monahan became no better than a 20 goal power play specialist.

This team needed Brouwer to be more than what he is. His brutal contract hamstrings them, no obvious replacements in the organization and not enough depth to make a trade for such a player. It is highly unfortunate.

Maybe they do miss Engelland. Or maybe they need to bring Iginla back so we can have a scapegoat.

Agreed, its beating a dead horse but the Brouwer signing failed on so many levels. He should have been a big part of this team, and instead is a barely serviceable 4th liner.

That is what it is but the fact that he still has an A and gets prime powerplay time is inexusable.

Personally I had enough of Brouwer last year when he essentially told Gaudreau to "deal with it" when he was slashed countless times against Minnesota. That set a really poor tone for this team's togetherness and team toughness.

[Jiri Hrdina]

Does he really still get prime pp time? I thought he has pretty much been removed from the pp?

[thymebalm]

The leadership is there from Giordano. He puts everything into every game he plays and he’s exemplary in the community as well. I wouldn’t question that at all.

It’s Stajan and Brouwer that are sore spots for me. Neither are deserving of any of the ice time or leadership responsibilities they’ve been given. They can’t lead by example, and they are sinking whatever line they find themselves on.

I know, KNOW, that this team is loaded with talent. Gaudreau and Giordano are all-stars, Monahan is one of the leagues best goal scorers, Brodie has shown he can be brilliant. Ferland and Bennett are coming into their own as legit players, Backlund and Tkachuk are incredibly smart hockey talents. Hamilton has the ability to be a 50 pt d-man.

Jankowski looks solid out there, as does Hathaway and Kulak. We have even more depth waiting on the farm in Mangiapane and Hrivik who are scoring at over a point a game (that hasn’t happened on our farm team in a decade or maybe more). Rittich is another example of the great depth we’ve built up.

The players on the team are not the problem. It’s the system, its the motivation, and its the coaching. You watch some of the ‘set plays’ like banging it from behind the net and force the forwards to make an impossible grab at center, the dump-ins, etc. It’s garbage. It lacks creativity.

The only good thing I’ve seen systems wise has been Jagr’s Influence on the down-low-side-board cycle. That’s him. He taught that to Jankowski and Bennett and that line has been successful since.

GG’s gotta go. Losing record in regulation, inability to spark a team, bad motivator. Leadership, I’d like to see Tkachuk in line for an A. Backs with one, too.

Anyway. I don’t know what Tre is waiting for at this point

[DazzlinDino]

Originally Posted by Machiavelli

Zero identity, which is supposed to come from leadership which ultimately reflects on the coaching staff.

If you rattle off some of the best teams in the league right now, one can identify their playing style with a few words:

Tampa Bay: skilled forwards, great snipers
Vegas: ragtag group, excellent work ethic
Winnipeg: big, fast, skilled
Nashville: best D in the league; mobile and great puck-movers
Kings: amazing team D

Calgary Flames: inconsistent? That's not good.

This is a great post and sums up exactly what's wrong with the team. Rather than putting players together the team should be built or molded with an identity.

[transplant99]

Originally Posted by Wild GM

Does he really still get prime pp time? I thought he has pretty much been removed from the pp?

Brouwer got 0:00 on the PP last night. That experiment has been over for a while now.

[Samiz]

I think missing Versteeg has hurt the team quite a bit on the leadership front. While he didn't really provide the grit aspect, I feel like he added a lot of character to the team

[MBates]

So the Flames are now in serious need of the intangibles that were mocked as essentially valueless things that they had better not pay up for when they had a guy who oozes leadership and grit wearing an "A" in need of a new contract named Kris Russell?

I get there are reasons people wanted to move on from Russell and I am not even posting here lamenting that if only he were still here the team would magically be winning. But as much as coaching staff are rightly being criticized for a team without an identity, can management explain what organizing principle it is they have been building the organization around?

Because at the moment it seems to me Brouwer still wearing an "A" reflects exactly what they have built. A team that impresses everyone on paper and does not seem to understand that no matter how much potential you have it only matters what you do on the ice. It's a tale as old as time. Talent and skill are necessary but not sufficient elements of a championship team.

Heart and soul and willingness to personally sacrifice for the greater good are just as important. Take those elements out and you have a great team on paper with unimpressive results on the ice. And in fact, teams like Vegas show how sometimes heart and soul and sacrifice can make up on the ice for what looks like a mess on paper.

The Flames have 'upgraded' to players with more talent and skill on paper and no longer are burdened by 'lesser' players like Russell, Engelland, Byron etc.

And now the board is wondering why the team is boring, lifeless, not responding when down, not seeming to care about losing.

It's not rocket science.

But if the advanced stats look good and we have a one of a kind 'brilliant' head coach expertly guiding things in a way that only someone as brilliant as him can see then I guess everything looks great...on paper...just not the official filed game sheets...on other kinds of paper.

[TheScorpion]

Kris Versteeg is one of this team's vet leaders too who was a pretty chippy guy on the ice. I think this team misses him more than we think.

[Wolfman]

I'm going to start off with Stajan has to go. It's so painfully obvious and I can't see how it hasn't been done yet. Quit putting him out on the PK, he is slow and isn't effective at that anymore. I don't care if he's been here for a long time...are in the business of being loyal or are you in the business of winning hockey games? I think a guy like Marek Hrivik would be a great replacement for Stajan.

I also would like to see some grit inserted into the lineup because this team is just butter soft right now. I don't care if it's a guy like Tanner Glass back up from Stockton or it's found outside the organization. This has bugged me all season and it's easy to see that teams know and can walk right through the Flames. Ferland and Hathaway are the only ones that hit anymore, Bennett shows some physicality sometimes. The D aren't physical either, it's maddening when you watch the opposing forwards freely skate around the back of the net and are able to walk out with the puck majority of the time. A couple physical D would be good, I miss the days of Regher and Sarich blowing forwards up in the corners.

And it's time to address the need for a top 6 right winger. If that means dealing one of the top 5 D, than that's what needs to happen. This team lacks offensive punch and the current group isn't going to get it done. What other team has Ferland on the first line? I love the kid but man he isn't the answer. There aren't a lot of players on this team I deem as untouchable right now either. The prospect pool is looking pretty good down in Stockton especially on defence.

It's hard to be a patient fan right now, with the talent on paper this team should be a lot better.

[Ragnar]

Is Glen even holding the players accountable? Does Brouwer know thats he's absolute trash and plays with no heart or is he completely oblivious to the fact that he's useless? I'm gobsmacked that he still has an A. Like what kind of message does that send to the team?

Leadership should first and foremost come from the coaches, and I don't see that at all from the Flames this season.