Flames assign Wotherspoon to Stockton and 2 days later recall him

[sureLoss]

@NHLFlames: The #Flames have assigned Tyler Wotherspoon to the @AHLHeat ~ http://cflam.es/2hcDbGB https://twitter.com/NHLFlames/status...662528/photo/1

[TheScorpion]

Well, that was pointless.

[devo22]

Kulak back up then, I assume?

[sureLoss]

By my count Flames used 9 of the 30 days (give or take a day depending on when the roster moves were made official) on the NHL roster before Wotherspoon had to go on waivers again to be sent back down.

Worth noting that if he had stayed on the roster past the 19th, the Flames would have been forced to keep him on the roster until the 28th when the NHL roster freeze lifts. That would have been 20 of the 30 days.

[MarkGio]

The Flames have been lucky with good health on defense. Normally there would be a few injuries already in the season

[sa226]

He must lead the league in a ratio of callup to healthy scratch.

[1qqaaz]

The Flames really need to work on their prospect development processes.

[IliketoPuck]

Nice little Xmas bonus for spoon.

[curves2000]

At what point does this kid say enough is enough and look for another organization? At what point do other prospects look at the scenario and see that for whatever reason, the Flames don't graduate a lot of players from the AHL clubs into the big club?

I am not going to sit here and say that Wotherspoon is the #1 defenceman in the NHL or anything but from his incredibly SHORT period of playing time he has shown to me at least that he belongs with the big club for an extended length of PLAYING time. The kid has played a grand total of 26 games for the Flames, which is equivalent to what, 2 months of a season? Tough to get into a rhythm coming and going all the time.

Maybe he will eventually pan out or maybe he won't but this organization has a serious FLAW with graduating AHL players, end of story. People can point to players like TJ Brodie all they want but at the end of the day, that appears to be a little more of a fluke/player credit than any sort of world class player development from the Flames side. If the Flames and the other teams expected TJ Brodie to be who he is currently, he wouldn't have been selected in the 4th round, he would have been selected much higher.

Looking forward into next year where there will be significantly D turnover, it would be nice to see a player get some playing time where the veterans can offer some advice on the ice during game situations. Sitting in the press box isn't the same thing. I would like to be able to go into next season knowing we have some fresh faces coming in too, helps keep everybody young and excited.

Just my $.02

[DazzlinDino]

Originally Posted by curves2000

At what point does this kid say enough is enough and look for another organization? At what point do other prospects look at the scenario and see that for whatever reason, the Flames don't graduate a lot of players from the AHL clubs into the big club?

I am not going to sit here and say that Wotherspoon is the #1 defenceman in the NHL or anything but from his incredibly SHORT period of playing time he has shown to me at least that he belongs with the big club for an extended length of PLAYING time. The kid has played a grand total of 26 games for the Flames, which is equivalent to what, 2 months of a season? Tough to get into a rhythm coming and going all the time.

Maybe he will eventually pan out or maybe he won't but this organization has a serious FLAW with graduating AHL players, end of story. People can point to players like TJ Brodie all they want but at the end of the day, that appears to be a little more of a fluke/player credit than any sort of world class player development from the Flames side. If the Flames and the other teams expected TJ Brodie to be who he is currently, he wouldn't have been selected in the 4th round, he would have been selected much higher.

Looking forward into next year where there will be significantly D turnover, it would be nice to see a player get some playing time where the veterans can offer some advice on the ice during game situations. Sitting in the press box isn't the same thing. I would like to be able to go into next season knowing we have some fresh faces coming in too, helps keep everybody young and excited.

Just my $.02

I am assuming he got paid while he was here, got to spend time and work out with the guys. That's a nice little bonus. Not sure why we need to make something negative out of that. If the right opportunity was there for him to play I am sure he would have but lets not make it overly negative.

[curves2000]

Originally Posted by DazzlinDino

I am assuming he got paid while he was here, got to spend time and work out with the guys. That's a nice little bonus. Not sure why we need to make something negative out of that. If the right opportunity was there for him to play I am sure he would have but lets not make it overly negative.

I am not suggesting he didn't get paid or anything or that his time here was all negative. He has probably been called up 20+ times and almost never gets into game action, this isn't a one or two-time scenario, this is almost ALWAYS.

Even some of the media who follow the team understand the scenario as being negative from a players perspective. I follow Darren Haynes blog and he just tweeted out the same thoughts, you feel bad because his hard work hasn't really resulted in much in my opinion.

https://twitter.com/DarrenWHaynes/st...91603184738304

I just hope we don't sour a potential young defenceman, that's all. You need to keep the NHL dream reasonably alive for players who have shown some legit promise.

[MarkGio]

Originally Posted by curves2000

At what point does this kid say enough is enough and look for another organization? At what point do other prospects look at the scenario and see that for whatever reason, the Flames don't graduate a lot of players from the AHL clubs into the big club?

I am not going to sit here and say that Wotherspoon is the #1 defenceman in the NHL or anything but from his incredibly SHORT period of playing time he has shown to me at least that he belongs with the big club for an extended length of PLAYING time. The kid has played a grand total of 26 games for the Flames, which is equivalent to what, 2 months of a season? Tough to get into a rhythm coming and going all the time.

Maybe he will eventually pan out or maybe he won't but this organization has a serious FLAW with graduating AHL players, end of story. People can point to players like TJ Brodie all they want but at the end of the day, that appears to be a little more of a fluke/player credit than any sort of world class player development from the Flames side. If the Flames and the other teams expected TJ Brodie to be who he is currently, he wouldn't have been selected in the 4th round, he would have been selected much higher.

Looking forward into next year where there will be significantly D turnover, it would be nice to see a player get some playing time where the veterans can offer some advice on the ice during game situations. Sitting in the press box isn't the same thing. I would like to be able to go into next season knowing we have some fresh faces coming in too, helps keep everybody young and excited.

Just my $.02

Let's put this into context, shall we. Look at all the D selected immediately before and after Wotherspoon. Only Nesterov and Jokipakka and Manson have really established themselves from that draft. And look how much AHL time some of those guys had.

It's not like Wotherspoon hasn't had a lot of good AHL minutes. The guy was given top 4 minutes for the bulk of his AHL career, before Kylington, Andersson, Kulak and those guys came in. What more can he learn in the AHL?

At least he's making more money and practicing against NHL speed. As a stay-at-home, he needs to learn to close the gap against NHLers, block NHL shots, and get physical with big bodies. Practice is giving him that, even if he's not in games. The AHL is giving him limited amounts of that.

Besides, maybe the Flames don't think he's an NHLer, so at least he's getting paid whereas other potential NHL prospects are getting game time. Given his draft and how few defenseman there are, it wouldn't surprise me

[curves2000]

Originally Posted by MarkGio

Let's put this into context, shall we. Look at all the D selected immediately before and after Wotherspoon. Only Nesterov and Jokipakka and Manson have really established themselves from that draft. And look how much AHL time some of those guys had.

It's not like Wotherspoon hasn't had a lot of good AHL minutes. The guy was given top 4 minutes for the bulk of his AHL career, before Kylington, Andersson, Kulak and those guys came in. What more can he learn in the AHL?

At least he's making more money and practicing against NHL speed. As a stay-at-home, he needs to learn to close the gap against NHLers, block NHL shots, and get physical with big bodies. Practice is giving him that, even if he's not in games. The AHL is giving him limited amounts of that.

Besides, maybe the Flames don't think he's an NHLer, so at least he's getting paid whereas other potential NHL prospects are getting game time. Given his draft and how few defenseman there are, it wouldn't surprise me

I agree with a lot of what you have said, I personally like the kid and see him as a decent 5-6 to start. He may not become an NHLer but let's stop wasting his time and everybody else's if he isn't and let's give the call up's to players who may benefit more, if Wotherspoon isn't one.

See what happen's but this season will be the inflection point where things go one way or another, hopefully in our favor for the sake of the team and the player. My take on this organizations lack of player development still stands though, Spooner or no Spooner. This goes back many years and doesn't appear to be getting any better.

[cam_wmh]

Originally Posted by curves2000

I agree with a lot of what you have said, I personally like the kid and see him as a decent 5-6 to start. He may not become an NHLer but let's stop wasting his time and everybody else's if he isn't and let's give the call up's to players who may benefit more, if Wotherspoon isn't one.

See what happen's but this season will be the inflection point where things go one way or another, hopefully in our favor for the sake of the team and the player. My take on this organizations lack of player development still stands though, Spooner or no Spooner. This goes back many years and doesn't appear to be getting any better.

LOl you have no idea what you're talking about.

There's about a dozen on the team today, that were properly developed internally.

[PepsiFree]

Originally Posted by curves2000

I agree with a lot of what you have said, I personally like the kid and see him as a decent 5-6 to start. He may not become an NHLer but let's stop wasting his time and everybody else's if he isn't and let's give the call up's to players who may benefit more, if Wotherspoon isn't one.



See what happen's but this season will be the inflection point where things go one way or another, hopefully in our favor for the sake of the team and the player. My take on this organizations lack of player development still stands though, Spooner or no Spooner. This goes back many years and doesn't appear to be getting any better.

Pointing to Wotherspoon as a failure of development doesn't make a lot of sense to me. You may seen him as a descent 5-6 to start, but I can't imagine his potential is higher than that at best. This is a prototypical tweener who might find himself a little career bouncing around teams on the bottom pairing, but that seems generous.

There is no question Calgary is seriously lacking homegrown talent compared to most contending teams. That alone has to make you question how far you can go. But I don't think it's primarily a development issue. Our drafting has been fairly awful for a fairly long time.

It's not that we have trouble graduating guys, it's that we have a horrible selection of whom to graduate (guys who aren't good or guys who really need to play more than 7th D/extra forward)

We lose a bit of dead weight over the summer and I fully expect Kulak, Hathaway, and possibly Jankowski to be on the team next year. Add Gillies and one of Kylington/Andersson/Fox/Poirier next year or the year after as well and things don't look so drab.



TL;DR Wotherspoon can't stick because he sucks.

[DazzlinDino]

Originally Posted by curves2000

I am not suggesting he didn't get paid or anything or that his time here was all negative. He has probably been called up 20+ times and almost never gets into game action, this isn't a one or two-time scenario, this is almost ALWAYS.

Even some of the media who follow the team understand the scenario as being negative from a players perspective. I follow Darren Haynes blog and he just tweeted out the same thoughts, you feel bad because his hard work hasn't really resulted in much in my opinion.

https://twitter.com/DarrenWHaynes/st...91603184738304

I just hope we don't sour a potential young defenceman, that's all. You need to keep the NHL dream reasonably alive for players who have shown some legit promise.

As someone mentioned when the opportunity is there he has to take the bull by the horns. It has to be frustrating for sure especially when he doesn't get playing time, but at least he is getting opportunities to be up with the big club. He gets to sit in with the team, watch video, spend time with the players, can ask questions and grow as person and a player. Hunter Shinkaruk has been in a similar situation but hasn't been showing enough to take a spot when he does get the opportunity. Pretty sure in Tyler's situation the Flames management, coaches talk about Tyler's development. We can look look at the glass as half full or half empty, but somewhere in the mix the Flames are rewarding the guy for his hard work.

[Finger Cookin]

Called up 9 times in his career to date, FYI. Not 20+.

[Calgary4LIfe]

Originally Posted by curves2000

At what point does this kid say enough is enough and look for another organization? At what point do other prospects look at the scenario and see that for whatever reason, the Flames don't graduate a lot of players from the AHL clubs into the big club?

I am not going to sit here and say that Wotherspoon is the #1 defenceman in the NHL or anything but from his incredibly SHORT period of playing time he has shown to me at least that he belongs with the big club for an extended length of PLAYING time. The kid has played a grand total of 26 games for the Flames, which is equivalent to what, 2 months of a season? Tough to get into a rhythm coming and going all the time.

Maybe he will eventually pan out or maybe he won't but this organization has a serious FLAW with graduating AHL players, end of story. People can point to players like TJ Brodie all they want but at the end of the day, that appears to be a little more of a fluke/player credit than any sort of world class player development from the Flames side. If the Flames and the other teams expected TJ Brodie to be who he is currently, he wouldn't have been selected in the 4th round, he would have been selected much higher.

Looking forward into next year where there will be significantly D turnover, it would be nice to see a player get some playing time where the veterans can offer some advice on the ice during game situations. Sitting in the press box isn't the same thing. I would like to be able to go into next season knowing we have some fresh faces coming in too, helps keep everybody young and excited.

Just my $.02

As DazzlinDino has mentioned, this is a big reward for his work down in Stockton. He is getting paid a lot more money up in the NHL. His standard of living took a nice big bump. He got to practice and maybe learn a thing or two. It wasn't in any way a 'waste'. This is not the Frankie Corrado Gate, Flames Edition.

As for the Flames' development question - I think it has unquestionably gotten better. You seem to be confusing a Wotherspoon-type prospect with a Brodie-type prospect. I don't for an instant call Brodie a 'fluke'. Tom Webster loved him at the draft, the Flames worked a lot with him down in the AHL, Brodie worked his butt off to develop, and the Flames continued to develop him in the NHL.

Giordano, Brodie, Backlund, Bouma, Hathaway, Monahan, Gaudreau, Bennett, Ferland, Jankowski, Kulak, Shinkaruk, Tkachuk - these are all players that are in varying stages of development with the Flames. I would even add Jokipakka, as he was not an established player in Dallas and is still developing on the Flames.

You might want to argue that Monahan, Gaudreau, Bennett and Tkachuk don't count as they didn't go to the AHL, but the Flames still had to figure out what the best path was for them. Sending them back down to Junior? AHL? What lines? Linemates? Extra attention in practice/games to explain things to them? One only has to look up north and see MPS, Yakupov, RNH, and even Puljujarvi this year to see how critical a proper developmental philosophy is regardless of how high a pick is and how close to NHL ready he is.

Wotherspoon hasn't been inserted into the lineup so far because Jokipakka (once again, someone that is also developing) hasn't been 'bad enough' to warrant replacing in the lineup. Conversely, has Wotherspoon been good enough in practice to warrant being inserted into the lineup? I have absolutely no idea.

There isn't a serious flaw at all in this organization. If anything, I will argue that development is actually turning into a strength organizationally. If you are going to base it on whether or not a wotherspoon-level prospect gets playing time, and sticks on the team, then you will always be seriously disappointed. These types are a dime-a-dozen in the NHL. Lots of organizations have prospects like these who are on the cusp of making the NHL, but just aren't good enough to be in the NHL regularly. It is up to them to force their presence on the team, but more often than not, it doesn't happen.

I like Wotherspoon, and I think his potential is a smart, safe #4 defencemen that is a bit more of a stay-at-home type who is a great partner for a more offensive-minded type. However, he hasn't pushed himself there. Flames are simply rewarding him for his dedication, and to show the other prospects on the farm that everyone will get a call-up if they deserve it (that is an important aspect to development).

Flames obviously thought that Wotherspoon would probably get a game or two, but Jokipakka has been stable enough in this stretch, so they sent him down as per Sureloss' post. I would bet we haven't seen the last of Wotherspoon this season - but even if we have it isn't some unmitigated disaster organizationally, and it does not point to some flaw. It simply says that the Calgary Flames have more depth than a tweener (and at this point, this is what Wotherspoon is) can't break through. It is up to him at this point to show the Flames that he deserves to be put on the team.

[MarkGio]

Originally Posted by PepsiFree

Pointing to Wotherspoon as a failure of development doesn't make a lot of sense to me. You may seen him as a descent 5-6 to start, but I can't imagine his potential is higher than that at best. This is a prototypical tweener who might find himself a little career bouncing around teams on the bottom pairing, but that seems generous.

There is no question Calgary is seriously lacking homegrown talent compared to most contending teams. That alone has to make you question how far you can go. But I don't think it's primarily a development issue. Our drafting has been fairly awful for a fairly long time.

It's not that we have trouble graduating guys, it's that we have a horrible selection of whom to graduate (guys who aren't good or guys who really need to play more than 7th D/extra forward)

We lose a bit of dead weight over the summer and I fully expect Kulak, Hathaway, and possibly Jankowski to be on the team next year. Add Gillies and one of Kylington/Andersson/Fox/Poirier next year or the year after as well and things don't look so drab.



TL;DR Wotherspoon can't stick because he sucks.

If the Flames spend this off season doing things like signing Mason Raymond's and Nik Grossman's, then yes, I would have to agree that they can't develop well. They said from the start they wanted a push from the bottom, but in all fairness to the guys, they need to have legitimate spots open.

There's no question the Flames have had lousy drafting for many years, especially in the top 6 forward position, but they've managed to find some diamonds with Ferland, Gaudreau, Mangiapane, and maybe Jankowski.

Where the Flames have only been good at scouting and developing is with bottom 6 forwards (ie, Bouma, Hathaway, Byron, Chiasson).

They really needed Jankowski, Klimchuck, Poirer, Granlund/Shinkaruk, Baertschi and the Hunter Smith pick to be the top 6 guys. Instead it's possible Mangiapane and Ferland could be closer to those guys at top 6 duty.

[curves2000]

Originally Posted by Finger Cookin

Called up 9 times in his career to date, FYI. Not 20+.

LOL. I should have proof read my post better. I hit 2 instead of 1, but yes, he has been called up a lot for a player.

I wish him all the best. Like I said in some of my earlier posts, I am not trying to suggest this kid is the bomb and we are doing a Frankie Corrado style move. I like the old fashion stay at home style he brings, we will see what happens and I wish him the best.