Who is better at drafting - Darryl Sutter, or a hat? - Calgarypuck Forums - The Unofficial Calgary Flames Fan Community

Five-hole · 08-23-2016, 03:42 PM

http://nhlnumbers.com/2016/8/23/who-...medium=twitter

Quote:

Darryl Sutter was simultaneously one of the best and worst general managers of the Calgary Flames. During his tenure, he took the team out of the Young Guns era and into their most successful spell since the 1980s. On the other hand, he also ignored the looming spectre of old age and unsustainability and sent the team crashing into rebuild mode.

The latter is mostly due to his drafting. If he wasn't trading draft picks away ("fun" fact! Sutter only drafted in the second round twice during his eight years), he was wasting them. There's the infamous 2005 and 2006 drafts, where the best selection he made was his own son (who played all of 60 NHL games). Of the 59 players he selected, only ten have player more than 100 games, and most of those ten are depth players. TJ Brodie, Dion Phaneuf, and Mikael Backlund are pretty much his only impact picks through his whole career.

It's absolutely stunning that a man who pretty much excelled at every other aspect of his job could fail so completely at drafting. Hindsight being 20/20 and all, we can look back and say he should've picked this player and this other player instead of this guy or Matt Pelech. That criticism can apply to every GM though. If given the chance to repick, everyone would grab certain NHLers.

The more interesting, and more fun, way to judge the quality of Darryl Sutter's picks is to put someone else in the exact same spot, but without any hockey knowledge, previous experience, scouting reports, statistical data, or what have you. Someone who is equally likely to take a seventh rounder in the first round as they would take a first rounder. Someone who could use all their picks on goalies. That someone is a hat.

Your results may vary.

djsFlames · 08-23-2016, 03:48 PM

Likely because he was stuck in the pre-2004 era when it came to drafting. Size and grit came above skill. Which is only good if you have a keen sense for which select handful of big guys will amount to top end talents in the NHL too.

As much as it sucked in hindsight I'm thankful for Daryl because we get to experience this young, fast and skilled upcoming team rather than be continuing to patch a leaking ship. Even if he drafted better, I don't know if he could have hand picked the likes of a Gaudreau because those players only come about every few years, and there weren't any of that caliber where the Flames were drafting in those years. It all lined up just right.

Huntingwhale · 08-23-2016, 03:50 PM

I think Sutter was quick to throw away picks because there wasn't as much emphasis on drafting as there is now. Don't get me wrong, it's always been important. But it's really been hammered down into GM's and fan's heads lately that you build through the draft. You acquire top talent through the draft. Sutter (and ownership for that matter) never really got that concept until it was too late and the rebuild started.

TheScorpion · 08-23-2016, 03:55 PM

A few more quality choices would have been nice, but boy am I happy the Flames have Brodie and Backlund.

GranteedEV · 08-23-2016, 03:56 PM

He was bad at drafting because his philosophy for the draft was "NHL-ready" (lol) filler players.

Once he starting taking a longer term, skill first approach he got us Brodie, Backlund, Ferland, Ortio all of whom were good picks. Tim Erixon was also a good pick at the time as were a few others. But that only lasted four drafts before he was gone. And he didn't have a first in 2010 or he might have drafted Tarasenko or Kuznetsov for all we know.

Not having 2nd rounders though, that's tough. But then again, he did get us a young Mike Cammalleri for one of them. Little did he know Cammy would go off for like 40 goals that contract year.

Vulcan · 08-23-2016, 03:59 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Huntingwhale

I think Sutter was quick to throw away picks because there wasn't as much emphasis on drafting as there is now. Don't get me wrong, it's always been important. But it's really been hammered down into GM's and fan's heads lately that you build through the draft. You acquire top talent through the draft. Sutter (and ownership for that matter) never really got that concept until it was too late and the rebuild started.

His marching orders were to make the playoffs and everything else was subordinate to that. It led to his downfall as he became more desperate.

Besides trading away picks, as said he didn't see the way the game was changing until it was too late for him.

Vinny01 · 08-23-2016, 04:00 PM

Brodie, Backlund, Ferland, Bouma all players on the current team that he drafted. Definitely not great but not horrible considering he didn't draft inside the top 20 from 2004-2010

burn_this_city · 08-23-2016, 04:01 PM

Depends on the hat, he's better than a fedora, but is neck and neck with a nice fitted ball cap.

polak · 08-23-2016, 04:12 PM

This is the important part:

Quote:

TJ Brodie, Dion Phaneuf, and Mikael Backlund are pretty much his only impact picks through his whole career.

Any GM can draft a tweener like Ferland and Bouma. He also got guys like Dustin Boyd and Eric Nystrom. Those guys don't matter. To only have drafted 3 impact players (one of whom he lost his marbles on and traded for spare parts) is a telling sign of how bad being stuck in the old guard can be.

Vulcan · 08-23-2016, 04:17 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by polak

This is the important part:

Any GM can draft a tweener like Ferland and Bouma. He also got guys like Dustin Boyd and Eric Nystrom. Those guys don't matter. To only have drafted 3 impact players (one of whom he lost his marbles on and traded for spare parts) is a telling sign of how bad being stuck in the old guard can be.

Check out Nystrom's draft and IIRC he was a pretty good choice for what was available.

CorsiHockeyLeague · 08-23-2016, 04:26 PM

The original of this concept will forever be the greatest.

http://www.pensionplanpuppets.com/20...-for-beginners

Weitz · 08-23-2016, 04:30 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by CorsiHockeyLeague

The original of this concept will forever be the greatest.

http://www.pensionplanpuppets.com/20...-for-beginners

Wow. I laughed more than I thought I would at that.

Mister Yamoto · 08-23-2016, 04:31 PM

When Darryl Sutter got here the Flames had the smallest scouting staff in the NHL and they didn't even have an AHL team. The Flames were known as the cheapest team in the NHL. Hardly an ideal situation for drafting and development.

And I also get a chuckle about how people criticize him for trading all those 2nds. He won those trades by miles. Mikka Kiprusoff alone is worth 20 2nd round draft picks. And the only two 2nd that he used yielded Tim Ramholt and Mitch Wahl. Really it's a strong argument for trading your 2nd every year.

I'll take Darryl over a hat. Actually I'll take Darryl over every GM the Flames have had excluding Fletcher.

TheScorpion · 08-23-2016, 04:36 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mister Yamoto

I'll take Darryl over every GM the Flames have had excluding Fletcher.

Really?

Not even Treliving?

Hackey · 08-23-2016, 04:39 PM

I think he did pretty good considering where his picks were and where the team was at during his tenure. If you have late 1st's you are far less likely to hit home runs. Also, you are willing to trade 1st and 2nds because you are trying to win Stanley Cups. Also agree the game was different and there was far less emphasis on drafting compared to now with the cap. Teams were adjusting to the cap era. At the end of the day I think the scouting team is most responsible for the draft. GM's get too much criticism and praise for drafting.

polak · 08-23-2016, 04:42 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mister Yamoto

I'll take Darryl over a hat. Actually I'll take Darryl over every GM the Flames have had excluding Fletcher.

Did you forget how he lost his mind? He went from one of the best GM's in the league to without a doubt one of the worst after the failed J-Bo experiment. After that it seemed like every single thing he did was a disaster.

MarkGio · 08-23-2016, 04:47 PM

I don't blame Sutter at all. What owner is so dumb they let the guy who's on the bench coaching, preparing players, going over footage and scheduling down time is also the same guy who's managing the scouts, making the call on picks, and determining how to improve the roster.

Obviously a guy with no time on his hands isn't going to watch young players and will simply trade away the picks. But ownership didn't think it was a bad idea to ask one guy to do it all?! It wasn't until after the 2004 run did Sutter hire a coach, hire an AGM, and start building the top part of the organization. And the same ownership allowed him to do so in a way that had all his brothers running departments like it was the mob.

The owners and Ken King were far more responsible. You have to respect Sutter for putting in a honest days work.

activeStick · 08-23-2016, 04:48 PM

Darryl Sutter the coach is awesome. He seems to have mastered the craft of motivating players and leading them to high performance.

Darryl Sutter the GM is quite the opposite and he's pretty bad at it overall.

MarkGio · 08-23-2016, 04:50 PM

And Sutter not only put in an honest days work, he managed to land some hidden gems like Kipper, Borque, Cammy, Glencross and Giordano

MrMastodonFarm · 08-23-2016, 04:52 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mister Yamoto

When Darryl Sutter got here the Flames had the smallest scouting staff in the NHL and they didn't even have an AHL team. The Flames were known as the cheapest team in the NHL. Hardly an ideal situation for drafting and development.

And I also get a chuckle about how people criticize him for trading all those 2nds. He won those trades by miles. Mikka Kiprusoff alone is worth 20 2nd round draft picks. And the only two 2nd that he used yielded Tim Ramholt and Mitch Wahl. Really it's a strong argument for trading your 2nd every year.

I'll take Darryl over a hat. Actually I'll take Darryl over every GM the Flames have had excluding Fletcher.

The Saint John Flames shut down operations after Sutter became GM.

Amazing coach, one of the best. Terrible GM.