The Kiprusoff Ruling II - Baseball Rules - Calgarypuck Forums - The Unofficial Calgary Flames Fan Community

Bingo · 08-23-2004, 09:42 AM

and why ...

just pointing out the risk of the starting points for each guy. They will likely meet in the middle (2.7), but if you had to choose one as "more" fair what would it be?

CrzyCanuck · 08-23-2004, 09:44 AM

In April we were arguing/justifying why he should be a veznia finalist, now we are supporting why he shouldn't be paid the big bucks. Those two don't gel. Give him the cash, just over a short time.

calf · 08-23-2004, 09:45 AM

Simple: Sutter at 1.4.

Why? I don't think anyone with one good season under their belt can possibly be worth 4 million - that's proven over several seasons money. Lace the 1.4 with sweet performance bonuses and you've got one kickass contract.

Bingo · 08-23-2004, 09:52 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by CrzyCanuck@Aug 23 2004, 09:44 AM
In April we were arguing/justifying why he should be a veznia finalist, now we are supporting why he shouldn't be paid the big bucks. Those two don't gel. Give him the cash, just over a short time.

The two don't have to be as one, though.

He was great for the Flames in a half season of work and solid in the playoffs. None of that would be argued by anyone.

But to pay him like a well established number one goaltender after half a season? Forget it.

flambers · 08-23-2004, 09:53 AM

Sutter case would win. The following facts would support the club:

(1) Kipper was the third string goalie at SJ.
(2) Kipper was beat out as the backup earlier in the year
(3) Kipper had a strong season but needs to play at a high level for 1-2 years to demostrate he is a true number 1 goalie.
(4) Kipper is an injury prone goalie. Played 40 plus games as a starter and sustained an injury that kept him out for 2-3 weeks.

Sidney Crosby's Hat · 08-23-2004, 10:00 AM

Steve Penney had a good playoff run once. I don't think half a season really justifies a salary of $4 million, especially when you consider where he was in the Sharks organization before the trade.

Remember the reaction of the majority of people on this board when they found out about the Kiprusoff trade? It wasn't positive even though we needed a goalie desperately.

Any Flames fan is lying if they say they're not worried about whether or not he can continue playing at that level in the future. He needs a season at $1.4 million to prove his consistency over multiple seasons and then they can talk bigger dollars at the end of that contract.

CrzyCanuck · 08-23-2004, 10:00 AM

How much are belfor/Brouder/Hasek/Giggy, Roy at the time of retirement/Turek 6 months ago, (the list goes on and on) making? Those guys make 3-4 million more then the high offer.

OldSam · 08-23-2004, 10:07 AM

I pick Sutter's offer, although I wonder if they made it so low to ensure the mid-range is more realistic to the budget.

I love our new goalie, and I don't expect him to fall down, but like everyone else here, I want him to prove it.

Five-hole · 08-23-2004, 10:17 AM

As an arbitrator? I'd pick Kelly's number. Sutter's number was an obvious lowballing -- which, as a non-arbitrator, I have no problems with whatsoever -- while Kelly's, whether apt or not, was derived by comparisons.

Now, if it was the baseball method, neither of the numbers would be what they are at the top of the poll.

Eddie Bronze · 08-23-2004, 10:22 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by calf@Aug 23 2004, 08:45 AM
Simple: Sutter at 1.4.

Why? I don't think anyone with one good season under their belt can possibly be worth 4 million - that's proven over several seasons money. Lace the 1.4 with sweet performance bonuses and you've got one kickass contract.

co-sign

Yellefan · 08-23-2004, 10:27 AM

I pick sutter. As much as I think that Kipper could be worth the 4 mil, I haven't seen enough of him to justify it. Sure he had a great season and a great playoffs, but he was a 3rd string goalie prior to that. I think 1.4 million with some huge bonus potential would be the best for everyone... gives kipper the potential to make the money he wants, while giving sutter some insurance that if this season was just a fluke, he's not locked in to paying him some ridiculous amount of money.

TOfan · 08-23-2004, 10:34 AM

The only way I could see him getting four is if the Flames had won the cup and he won the con smythe.

Radically Red · 08-23-2004, 10:37 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by CrzyCanuck@Aug 23 2004, 04:00 PM
How much are belfor/Brouder/Hasek/Giggy, Roy at the time of retirement/Turek 6 months ago, (the list goes on and on) making? Those guys make 3-4 million more then the high offer.

What does that matter.

Other than Giggy they all were alot more established than just 39 games and a playoff fun.

Giggy also played few years before his good run. Look at him now.
he Is not worth the contract he signed based on his play last year.

CrzyCanuck · 08-23-2004, 10:44 AM

Thats why he isnt asking for 8 mill. 4 Mill over a short time seems reasonable to me. (Forget we are in poor small market Alberta)

Tower · 08-23-2004, 10:45 AM

Simple, half a season does not mean that he should get Millions and Millions. Prove yourself first thedn get the big bucks.

CrzyCanuck · 08-23-2004, 10:49 AM

IS this the case? You have a short time period to make $$ in the nhl, why wait this out, your hot now, so get paid now??

ChipOne · 08-23-2004, 11:10 AM

two good points here in this thread already:

1) sutter is lowballing for the point of arbitration (though, kelly is likely going high here, too)
2) these are not the numbers they would present in a baseball-style arbitration

i'd have to go with Sutter's figure as it presents a considerable raise over the previous year, and kelly's is too high for the experience his client has obtained.

the comparisons kelly's drawing are only valid in the context of a very short time frame and conveniently omit the outcomes of the awarded contracts.

ChipOne · 08-23-2004, 11:12 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by CrzyCanuck@Aug 23 2004, 04:49 PM
IS this the case? You have a short time period to make $$ in the nhl, why wait this out, your hot now, so get paid now??

no, he's not hot now. he was hot last season. we have no idea how he's going to do next year, though, for the sake of the team we hope he plays at the level he's demonstrated.

if i was kipper and i was as confident as he appears to be, i'd take whatever sutter was offering (1.4 mil or 1.7 mil or whatever) and then agree to it if he laced it up with some sweet bonuses. $1 mil for second round of the playoffs, $1 mill for SCF.

Radically Red · 08-23-2004, 11:16 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by CrzyCanuck@Aug 23 2004, 04:49 PM
IS this the case? You have a short time period to make $$ in the nhl, why wait this out, your hot now, so get paid now??

So by that logic when you play cold you should take a pay cut then. Since that does not happen why should a guy get 4 million bucks for a half years work. When this was the only time he has shown he could play at this level

Do it again for another season. Then let the money flow a bit more.
until then 4 mill is just outrageous. That would pinpoint exactly whats wrong with the NHL.

shoestring · 08-23-2004, 11:23 AM

A raise of 600 g's ,just about doubling his salary seems awful good to me.
If he plays as well next year ,he will get another huge raise.
When he hits 31 and tests out free agency,he might well get Balfour money.
If he has played great till then of course.

I really think a player has to prove his consistancy over time,especially
goalies.3rd stringers especially.He is lucky Sutter spotted him as the right fit
for our team play.

If he gets anything over 2 million ,I would sign and trade him.