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Habs legends talk about what's wrong with the game
Ken Dryden on goaltending
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“Look at a picture of Ken Dryden,” instructs the five-time Stanley Cup champion. “Then look at a picture of, for example, Ben Bishop. Both big guys. Different eras. Put them side-by-side. There you are."
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“What’s happening right now is goaltenders are wearing equipment not for protection but to fill the net. They might SAY it’s for protection … but we know better. Patrick (Roy) was the first guy to start cheating. Putting in webbing and stuff like that. I think we should introduce today’s goaltenders to Kevlar.
“In our era, and before me, one of the most exciting plays in hockey was Bobby Hull, Frank Mahovlich, Guy (Lafleur) steaming down the wing, taking a big slapshot and picking the corner.
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“Because in today’s game, with the goaltenders’ equipment, there is no corner. There’s nothing to shoot at.
“The majority of the goals today come from scrums in front of the net. Not exactly pretty goals. Because the shots aren’t there.”
Guy Lafleur on the lack of creatvity in the game
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"But also, it’s the type of game played now. That’s why you don’t see more goals. They get to the red line and they dump it in. It’s a chasing game — all the time. When they have the puck, they get rid of it. Instead of entering the zone and trying to make a play.
“It seems like that’s a lot easier for everybody. For me, as an ex-player, it’s a boring game. You don’t see the pure talent of the individual because they aren’t willing to exploit it. They’re stuck in a system. Most of the teams in the league — with a few exceptions — all look alike.
“The game today lacks creativity. That’s what you need. That’s what people want.”
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“But you don’t see the Gilbert Perreaults anymore. You don’t see the Keith Tkachuks or the Rick Tocchets, Pat Verbeeks, either, the guys who play a big, strong, tough game and also score 30, 35, 40 goals every year. That’s why I have so much respect for Ovechkin. Five-six body checks — good body checks — every night, always involved and still scores 45 to 50 goals a year. Amazing. He deserves a lot of respect, this guy.”
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“People will say everybody thinks the game in his era was better,” admits Lafleur, with a shrug. “No, no. For me, that’s not the point. I love the game. I want to see creativity, I want to see great goals. I want ‘Wow!’ There’s not enough ‘Wow!’ in the game anymore. You see … some. But not on a regular enough basis.”
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“To me, the game should be like it was in our day: A tie, one point each. That’s it. You walk away. Go home. No five minutes, no four-on-four, no three-on-there, no what do you call it? Shootout? Now, if a team loses, it gets a point.
“A point? What for? Losing? To me, that ridiculous.”
I agree with both of them but Guy, if you're troubled by teams playing dull dump and chase (and the trap), maybe you should have a chat with your old buddy Jacques Lemaire.
“look at a picture of ken dryden,” instructs the five-time stanley cup champion. “then look at a picture of, for example, ben bishop. Both big guys. Different eras. Put them side-by-side. There you are."
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“what’s happening right now is goaltenders are wearing equipment not for protection but to fill the net. They might say it’s for protection … but we know better. Patrick (roy) was the first guy to start cheating. Putting in webbing and stuff like that. I think we should introduce today’s goaltenders to kevlar.
“in our era, and before me, one of the most exciting plays in hockey was bobby hull, frank mahovlich, guy (lafleur) steaming down the wing, taking a big slapshot and picking the corner.
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“because in today’s game, with the goaltenders’ equipment, there is no corner. There’s nothing to shoot at.
“the majority of the goals today come from scrums in front of the net. Not exactly pretty goals. Because the shots aren’t there.”
Guy Lafleur on the lack of creatvity in the game
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"but also, it’s the type of game played now. That’s why you don’t see more goals. They get to the red line and they dump it in. It’s a chasing game — all the time. When they have the puck, they get rid of it. Instead of entering the zone and trying to make a play.
“it seems like that’s a lot easier for everybody. For me, as an ex-player, it’s a boring game. You don’t see the pure talent of the individual because they aren’t willing to exploit it. They’re stuck in a system. Most of the teams in the league — with a few exceptions — all look alike.
“the game today lacks creativity. That’s what you need. That’s what people want.”
STEPHAN RICHER on the demise of real toughness
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“but you don’t see the gilbert perreaults anymore. You don’t see the keith tkachuks or the rick tocchets, pat verbeeks, either, the guys who play a big, strong, tough game and also score 30, 35, 40 goals every year. That’s why i have so much respect for ovechkin. Five-six body checks — good body checks — every night, always involved and still scores 45 to 50 goals a year. Amazing. He deserves a lot of respect, this guy.”
Lafleur again, on overtime
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“people will say everybody thinks the game in his era was better,” admits lafleur, with a shrug. “no, no. For me, that’s not the point. I love the game. I want to see creativity, i want to see great goals. I want ‘wow!’ there’s not enough ‘wow!’ in the game anymore. You see … some. But not on a regular enough basis.”
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“to me, the game should be like it was in our day: A tie, one point each. That’s it. You walk away. Go home. No five minutes, no four-on-four, no three-on-there, no what do you call it? Shootout? Now, if a team loses, it gets a point.
“a point? What for? Losing? To me, that ridiculous.”
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Dealing with Everything from Dead Sea Scrolls to Red C Trolls
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Originally Posted by woob
"...harem warfare? like all your wives dressup and go paintballing?"
The reason there was so much more scoring, seeming creativity, and "wow" moments in the NHL in the '70s and '80s than now is because the gap in talent from the top to the bottom has closed. The greatest players in today's game are just as great as the stars of bygone eras, but the middling and bottom end players are much, MUCH better.
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Dealing with Everything from Dead Sea Scrolls to Red C Trolls
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Originally Posted by woob
"...harem warfare? like all your wives dressup and go paintballing?"
They're absolutely right about the goalie equipment, though; it's totally not about safety.
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Originally Posted by Textcritic
The reason there was so much more scoring, seeming creativity, and "wow" moments in the NHL in the '70s and '80s than now is because the gap in talent from the top to the bottom has closed. The greatest players in today's game are just as great as the stars of bygone eras, but the middling and bottom end players are much, MUCH better.
Defensive systems are much better making it much more difficult to carry the puck into the opposition end.
The game is also more structured in how plays are created with less free flowing. That structure limits how a player can be creative. A few teams like the Hawks allow players like Kane to be creative. Then you have the Wild and thier defence first boring style of hockey.
Lafluer was right when he said todays game is boring.
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The ''problem'' is, and always will be, coaching. It's a systems game. Coaches like Tippett and Hitchcock don't give 2 hoots how much the average fan pays to see a game. They don't care that people want to be entertained. It's about winning, plain and simple. As much as hockey is about trying to score goals, it's more about preventing them and outsmarting the guy on the other bench. At the end of the day, if they play a boring style game with 20 shots on each side and come out with a 1-0 victory, they have done their job.
We can enlarge the nets, reduce equipment and change all the rules we want. But coaches have, and always will, adapt. If you want to show off the true creativity of the players and increase scoring chances, you're going to have to get rid of coaches who have been around for 20+ years who know how to shut down other teams. Get rid of coaches like Tippet and Hitchcock. No video coaches. No ear pieces on the bench. Stuff like that. Unrealistic in the digital world we live in to implement rules like that, but when you have 5 guys in the press box who can relay messages to the coach about where players should be and how to shut down the other team, it's no wonder games these day don't have much flow..
I posted this video a while back, but it proves my point. Look how many guys behind the scenes have a direct effect on the game just by having access to video, earpieces and replay. It's insane. And all 30 teams do this, each one trying to get the latest and greatest technology to shut the other team down. The head coach is simply the figure head for them all. You got like 10 guys each pumping instructions and information to one another, with the intent of shutting the other team down and finding that ever slight advantage that can be the difference between winning and losing.
To me the issue is the game is over-coached. If a player doesn't follow the coach's instructions, he's benched. Which can mean less ice team, which means potential earning lost down the road. More then ever players are slaves to the coach's style of play. It's not goals the makes hockey exciting. It's more scoring chances. But more scoring chances means more run-and-gun. Which means more potential goals against. And as much as fans love run and gun, coaches despise it.
Last edited by Huntingwhale; 12-04-2015 at 06:27 PM.
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We can enlarge the nets, reduce equipment and change all the rules we want. But coaches have, and always will, adapt.
Not sure it matters, if you do this properly. If the goalie equipment is smaller and the nets a bit bigger, such that it's actually reasonably possible to score from anywhere in the zone if your shot's good enough, it doesn't matter how good the defensive system is to keep guys to the outside.
The other side of it is taking advantage of coaches adapting. How? By just calling a metric ton of holding, hooking, interference and slashing penalties. First one? If a guy chips the puck past a d-man, and the d-man holds him up at the line, that's interference. It's deliberate interference. The reason he's doing it isn't to hit him, but to prevent him from going in and getting the damned puck.
They really need to just commit to calling the penalties, at all times, including the playoffs. First season or so, there's going to be a lot more power plays, but eventually, coaches will adapt and the play style will change to avoid being shorthanded 8 times a game.
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Originally Posted by Mike F
I quite enjoy today's NHL, thank you very much.
The depth of skilled players, the speed, and the competitiveness is outstanding.
I really wish people would stop insisting that more goals = better hockey, ipso facto.
I loath the dump and chase style of game you see quite often in todays game. That doesn't create alot of Wow factor in the game and it doesn't properly showcase the true talents of our most skilled players.
I miss the days where Bobby Orr would pick up the puck behind his net and go end to end in scoring a goal.
Not sure it matters, if you do this properly. If the goalie equipment is smaller and the nets a bit bigger, such that it's actually reasonably possible to score from anywhere in the zone if your shot's good enough, it doesn't matter how good the defensive system is to keep guys to the outside.
The other side of it is taking advantage of coaches adapting. How? By just calling a metric ton of holding, hooking, interference and slashing penalties. First one? If a guy chips the puck past a d-man, and the d-man holds him up at the line, that's interference. It's deliberate interference. The reason he's doing it isn't to hit him, but to prevent him from going in and getting the damned puck.
They really need to just commit to calling the penalties, at all times, including the playoffs. First season or so, there's going to be a lot more power plays, but eventually, coaches will adapt and the play style will change to avoid being shorthanded 8 times a game.
That's another thing the league has failed at. Consistency with calling penalties and obstruction. After the '04 lockout, every year has become more and more lax when it comes to calling penalties. That's 100% on the league for mandating that to the refs.
I loath the dump and chase style of game you see quite often in todays game. That doesn't create alot of Wow factor in the game and it doesn't properly showcase the true talents of our most skilled players.
I miss the days where Bobby Orr would pick up the puck behind his net and go end to end in scoring a goal.
He could do that, at half the speed players today skate at, because rosters were chock full of guys with minimal talent.
Throw Patrick Kane into the ECHL and you'll see something similar.
People who miss the Bobby Orr days either only saw the highlights of Orr's exploits, or predominantly remember those. Watch a full 60 minute game from a previous era, including a lot of time the stars aren't on the ice, and I'd guarantee the excitement level drops.
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I loath the dump and chase style of game you see quite often in todays game. That doesn't create alot of Wow factor in the game and it doesn't properly showcase the true talents of our most skilled players.
I miss the days where Bobby Orr would pick up the puck behind his net and go end to end in scoring a goal.
It's funny, parity might be the reason we don't have what you describe. There are no bad teams left to rack up numbers and highlight reel plays against. Last year there were a few though, due to the McTanking:
Ben Bishop is an average goaltender that just happens to be massive. It's all about covering the net and making yourself big. JS Giguere made a very nice career out of wearing oversized equipment and being big rather than outright skill.
I don't think there's a fix for the lack of creativity because coaches will always create the systems to take away the opposition's skill and level the playing field. It only took one season for the league to put the clamps down on the Flames stretch pass transition game. Plus teams all collapse in front of the net taking away shots as it's pretty rare that shots from the blue line even make it to the net and if it does it has to beat a goaltender that's so big he covers 2/3 of the net. You aren't going to see guys like Lafleur skating in on the wing shooting pucks on the net because defensemen are back and are going to get a stick or their body in front of the shot. Also now 4th line players can play hockey. There's no room for goons and plugs which means top lines can't exploit substandard talent on the ice like they could in Lafleur's days. Matt Stajan in the early 80's would be a 60 point player but today he's a 4th line center in the NHL.
I don't think you will ever see the fire wagon hockey that Lafleur misses but at least shrinking the equipment would result in more goals and more goaltenders to sink or swim with actual elite skill over these hulking guys that use their bodies to take away the angles and space. There's no quick fix though as the game has changed and players are all bigger, faster, and better.
Last edited by Erick Estrada; 12-04-2015 at 06:54 PM.
Ben Bishop is an average goaltender that just happens to be massive. It's all about covering the net and making yourself big. JS Giguere made a very nice career out of wearing oversized equipment and being big rather than outright skill.
I don't think there's a fix for the lack of creativity because coaches will always create the systems to take away the opposition's skill and level the playing field. It only took one season for the league to put the clamps down on the Flames stretch pass transition game. Plus teams all collapse in front of the net taking away shots as it's pretty rare that shots from the blue line even make it to the net and if it does it has to beat a goaltender that's so big he covers 2/3 of the net. You aren't going to see guys like Lafleur skating in on the wing shooting pucks on the net because defensemen are back and are going to get a stick or their body in front of the shot. Also now 4th line players can play hockey. There's no room for goons and plugs which means top lines can't exploit substandard talent on the ice like they could in Lafleur's days. Matt Stajan in the early 80's would be a 60 point player but today he's a 4th line center in the NHL.
I don't think you will ever see the fire wagon hockey that Lafleur misses but at least shrinking the equipment would result in more goals and more goaltenders to sink or swim with actual elite skill over these hulking guys that use their bodies to take away the angles and space. There's no quick fix though as the game has changed and players are all bigger, faster, and better.
But that is the question. Why are coaches trying to win by being defensive instead of offensive? Because the rules allow it. In the NFL, coaches are under pressure to win too but they do coach offensively, it's no longer 3 yards and a cloud of dust. The league has made defending harder.
The NHL has also tried to make defending harder but it seems their rules change have been counter-intuitive.
Some examples:
1) clutching a grabbing/interference
You'd think this would help the offense but in the past the offensive team would also hold defenders, knock them over and run picks. Can you imagine if you couldn't run picks in a basketball offensive set? That's how the NHL is.
2) no change after an icing.
You think it's an advantage against tired players but in the past, teams could counter-attack off of a defensive faceoff win, now they are too tired. If you go back and watch the famous Lemieux goal in the 87 Canada Cup that came off of a icing. Today's rules Lemieux wouldn't have been on the ice (can't change) and the tired players would have cleared the zone and gone to overtime. Also they can't launch counter attacks from their own zone because they are scared to ice the puck, which leads to:
3) puck over the glass
Defenders are scared to shoot the puck high on the glass which is the easiest way to clear the zone and launch a counter attack. So now they just dribble it out and the teams play catch back and forth in the neutral zone.
So with all these supposed rules to help offense, instead just makes the defense hunker down and soak in pressure instead of stealing the puck and going on the counter. So the game has less flow. This is also because of short shifts but we can't do anything about that.
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Habs legends talk about what's wrong with the game
