Interesting advanced stats on the Flames' Dman passing - Calgarypuck Forums - The Unofficial Calgary Flames Fan Community

GranteedEV · 07-15-2015, 11:33 AM

http://www.matchsticksandgasoline.co...mes-defensemen

gilligans_off · 07-15-2015, 11:56 AM

Thanks for posting this... though I really can't follow these type of stats. It's above my head and I really don't have the needed attention span to try and make sense of them lol

Pretty hard on some of the guys. I suppose you can always find a stat to be negative towards a player/team. Saying Kris Russell isn't a top four because of these stats is useless. He led the league in blocked shots and was solid defensively in my eyes.

Cheerio · 07-15-2015, 12:05 PM

Surprised at how low Russell and Wideman were on there. Engelland is a brutal passer especially on the breakout. These graphs appear to be closely correlated to ownthepuck's HERO charts. Too bad Schlemko wasn't listed on there, if his HERO chart is any indication he would have ranked 3rd on the Flames.

DJones · 07-15-2015, 01:16 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Cheerio

Surprised at how low Russell and Wideman were on there. Engelland is a brutal passer especially on the breakout. These graphs appear to be closely correlated to ownthepuck's HERO charts. Too bad Schlemko wasn't listed on there, if his HERO chart is any indication he would have ranked 3rd on the Flames.

For Russell these stats don't show his style of play at all. He doesn't really shoot all that much and he makes his pass well before the offensive zone in most cases.

Most of his offensive prowess is from keeping the puck in and maybe some 3rd assists. The fact that he is a great skater and has a great first pass doesn't really show up here.

Brody and Gio on the other hand routinely carry the puck into the offensive zone.

All these fancy stats to figure out something you can tell by watching the game. The conclusion that Russell isn't a top 4 defenseman is quite the leap. Diaz in the top 50-60% just shows that nobody defenseman that like to take lots of shots are messing with the numbers. I would agree that per minute Diaz is involved in more shot attempts than Russell is but never would I put Diaz above Russell.

GioforPM · 07-15-2015, 01:41 PM

The pass I care most about for D-men is the first pass, and I'm not sure it's reflected well in these stats. Russell and Wideman both have decent first passes. The fact they might go to a Jones or Bouma who like to dump and chase isn't their fault.

Fighting Banana Slug · 07-15-2015, 01:48 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by GioforPM

The pass I care most about for D-men is the first pass, and I'm not sure it's reflected well in these stats. Russell and Wideman both have decent first passes. The fact they might go to a Jones or Bouma who like to dump and chase isn't their fault.

Agreed. The stats are interesting in comparing dmen's value in the offensive zone, but I would love to see more on zone exits, as it relates to dmen getting the puck out of the zone, without icing it or firing it over the glass.
Russell gets killed on the shot attempt metric, as he doesn't shoot that much and blocks so many. Having said that, I do think he has excellent wheels and thought he would have done better, carrying the puck.

heep223 · 07-15-2015, 01:56 PM

Russell and Wideman are both 4/5s on a team with a really good D corps. Like the Flames. To say either of them are legit top 4 is a stretch....to say either of them are not top 4 is a stretch. I honestly think Russell has the best first 3 steps of any D in the league. And Wideman seems to have the ability to always get seeing eye shots through to the net. They both have unique elements they bring in that 4/5 role and I think they'll excel next year. It's unbelievable how much acquiring Hamilton changed the landscape of this team.

calumniate · 07-15-2015, 02:00 PM

Engellend puts it up the boards like a robot. Not that there's anything wrong with that

Street Pharmacist · 07-15-2015, 02:01 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by calumniate

Engellend puts it up the boards like a robot. Not that there's anything wrong with that

Well there is. If your boxing strategy is to dodge punches all match, you'll lose every time

DJones · 07-15-2015, 02:13 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by heep223

Russell and Wideman are both 4/5s on a team with a really good D corps. Like the Flames. To say either of them are legit top 4 is a stretch....to say either of them are not top 4 is a stretch. I honestly think Russell has the best first 3 steps of any D in the league. And Wideman seems to have the ability to always get seeing eye shots through to the net. They both have unique elements they bring in that 4/5 role and I think they'll excel next year. It's unbelievable how much acquiring Hamilton changed the landscape of this team.

Think Russell is a fantastic 4th D. There's what, maybe 3 teams that he wouldn't be at least the fourth best defenseman?

He got 34 points and had the highest +/- on the team.

I think the advanced stats rally against blocked shots is tainting peoples opinion of Russell. Five years ago after a season like that we would be talking about him being a possible #2 not a #5

Street Pharmacist · 07-15-2015, 02:18 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by calumniate

Engellend puts it up the boards like a robot. Not that there's anything wrong with that

I should add to my earlier post. Firing it out like a robot at 5v5 is an awful, awful strategy. As a pker, that's gold though.

calumniate · 07-15-2015, 02:28 PM

Yes I tend to agree. Could stand varying it up a bit. The only upside I see is that at least his teammates know what he's going to do, so there aren't ever any surprises even if the win / loss ratio ends up being about 50/50

Street Pharmacist · 07-15-2015, 02:29 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by calumniate

Yes I tend to agree. Could stand varying it up a bit. The only upside I see is that at least his teammates know what he's going to do, so there aren't ever any surprises even if the win / loss ratio ends up being about 50/50

When you dump it out, your almost always giving the puck right back. It's just never a good option unless you need a change badly or you under big pressure

calumniate · 07-15-2015, 02:32 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Street Pharmacist

When you dump it out, your almost always giving the puck right back. It's just never a good option unless you need a change badly or you under big pressure

What can I say - they are only my observations but he puts it up the boards 95% of the time. I start to wonder if it's simply what the coaches have told him to do. Can be frustrating at times for sure but at least they don't result in Oiler quality giveaway goals

BigFlameDog · 07-15-2015, 02:33 PM

So those of you who don't think Wideman and Russell are top four think there are 120 dmen in the league who are better than them? Really?

I really don't understand this line of thinking. Or is it more that they aren't the top four you dream of when you fall asleep at night?

heep223 · 07-15-2015, 02:34 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Street Pharmacist

When you dump it out, your almost always giving the puck right back. It's just never a good option unless you need a change badly or you under big pressure

While I agree, Engelland isn't on the team for his crisp first passes or offensive production. He has other skills.

Street Pharmacist · 07-15-2015, 02:36 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by heep223

While I agree, Engelland isn't on the team for his crisp first passes or offensive production. He has other skills.

Agreed, but we're a worse team with him on the ice more often than not. There are times where his physicality is an asset, but more often his limited skill hurts

GranteedEV · 07-15-2015, 02:38 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by heep223

While I agree, Engelland isn't on the team for his crisp first passes or offensive production. He has other skills.

...other skills that the best teams in the league don't seem to require in their bottom 6.

ricardodw · 07-15-2015, 02:43 PM

The whole commentary on Wideman and Russell seems like a cry for help.... Stop us doing this we are wasting our time and are confused beyond redemption.

Russel and Wideman were the best #1 pairing in the league once Gio got hurt

Wideman 19 game 19 pts +11 27 minutes a game.
Russell 19 games 14 pts +8 26 minutes a game

Flames 12-3-4 28 out of a possible 38 pts a 120 pt season pace only about 1 time every 5 years does any team go over 120 pts a season.

There are no easy match ups when you are playing every second shift.

Can they do that for a full season? I don't think so. Weber and Sutter playing together as 26 year olds in 2011-12 could not match what Wideman and Russell did the last 19 games of 2014-15.

Any statistics that analyzes their play last year and come up with the conclusion that they are not even top 4 d-men is not WRONG , they are terribly, horribly and irredeemably WRONG.

starseed · 07-15-2015, 03:22 PM

They were fantastic, but put Weber/Suter in the hartley back end offensive system, and you would probably see them go on an offensive tear at some point in the season.

Russell and Wideman are going to be 2 important pieces in one of the league's elite top 3 defences next year, but I think this is a case of the whole being greater than the sum of its parts - thanks in large part to the Jack Adams incumbent.