$10 Billion Lawsuit against Alberta and Feds

[killer_carlson]

According to the article it is alleging that there was a fail to disclose that the land being signed away by the band members included oil and gas rights.

http://www.edmontonjournal.com/news/...878/story.html

[Rerun]

The lawsuit lists as defendants the Attorney General of Canada, former deputy minister of aboriginal affairs Michael Wernick, the Alberta government, and a half-dozen lawyers who conducted negotiations with band members while representing the federal and provincial governments.

Did the band not have their own lawyers to represent their interests in the negotiations?

[blueski]

Well court is the right place to settle this.

[Locke]

Originally Posted by blueski

Well court is the right place to settle this.

As more band money goes to lawyers.

[peter12]

These lawsuits are 90% fantasy for the plaintiffs, but 100% profit for the parasitic class of lawyers that feed on this sort of nonsense. Until, First Nations relinquish the aristocratic dream that they deserve to be paid out for other people using Crown land that they reside on, and instead, insist for property rights, push for massive government investment into band health and education, and begin to create their own wealth, this will continue to be a cycle of abject misery.

[sureLoss]

Originally Posted by locke

as more band money goes to lawyers.

[Rerun]

Will the band have to pay the lawyers representing them in this law suit or can they get the Federal/Provincial governments to pay?

[puckedoff]

I sold some stock in 2009 that has since gone up in value. I don't think the buyer correctly explained to me what the company was really worth. Where do I file my law suit?

[T@T]

Originally Posted by puckedoff

I sold some stock in 2009 that has since gone up in value. I don't think the buyer correctly explained to me what the company was really worth. Where do I file my law suit?

I would like to sue the people who bought my Scarboro house for $158k in 1997 because 5 years later it was worth $300k.

[TurdFerguson]

[RougeUnderoos]

Originally Posted by peter12

Until, First Nations relinquish the aristocratic dream that they deserve to be paid out for other people using Crown land that they reside on,

So, uhh, give up the "aristocratic dream" of getting money out of land that the ultimate aristocrat (in a Crown) deemed "Crown land"?

Originally Posted by peter12

and instead, insist for property rights, push for massive government investment into band health and education, and begin to create their own wealth, this will continue to be a cycle of abject misery.

I actually agree with this. And now I'm going to buy a $500 pair of shoes.

[peter12]

Originally Posted by RougeUnderoos

So, uhh, give up the "aristocratic dream" of getting money out of land that the ultimate aristocrat (in a Crown) deemed "Crown land"?

I actually agree with this. And now I'm going to buy a $500 pair of shoes.

Well, as property rights don't exist on reserves, they have no means to capitalize on their natural resources. Even if they did, the leadership really only expects developers to pay rental fees as users, instead of using their own capacity to build wealth, and allowing certain elites on the reserve to benefit, while the rest of the community gets very little. Furthermore, by expecting renter or user fees from developers, this often places a disincentive on regular band members to gain the experience or training to benefit from the work being done. Most of the work done by First Nations people on big infrastructure projects is along the lines of clean-up or basic labour. This is in spite of the very generous hiring quotas most companies have for First Nations workers.

It is very similar to the old aristocratic prejudice against getting one's hands dirty with the machinations of capitalism. The bands are so left behind in regards to practically everything as a result that is no wonder they go down the absolutely fruitless path of self-destructive lawsuits.

Bought my second pair of $500+ shoes today for my wedding. Feeling great about that.

[Rerun]

Originally Posted by RougeUnderoos

I actually agree with this. And now I'm going to buy a $500 pair of shoes.

Originally Posted by peter12

Bought my second pair of $500+ shoes today for my wedding. Feeling great about that.

Seriously... $500 for a pair of shoes? Holy crap! What waste of money (just my opinion mind you and it is your money).

[troutman]

This is such a complex area - there are textbooks and university courses devoted to it. To summarize this entire realm of litigation in a sentence or paragraph is simplistic. Certainly there are themes that can be identified, but every case is different.

Are these lawsuits fruitless? Many cases have been successful. And success can be defined in a number of ways:

http://www.lawtimesnews.com/20140804...-of-both-sides

With First Nations having won some key court victories in recent months, the federal government looks to be responding (or at least appearing to do so) with new measures announced last week on treaty negotiations and reconciliation.

Among the measures are new guidance for industry on consultation with aboriginals and entering into more consultation protocols in areas such as resource development. They also include an effort to clarify the federal government’s approach to helping resolve shared territory disputes related to resource development.

A 25-year legal dispute with Alberta First Nations over oil royalties is a major item on the department’s list of law firm spending. One First Nation in particular, the Samson Indian Nation, has been battling the government first over the interest paid on royalties it had been holding on its behalf and now on the price Canada had based them on during the 1970s. The First Nations lost on the interest issue at the Supreme Court of Canada a few years back but they continue to challenge the government’s use of the lower domestic price of oil during that period, rather than the higher exported price, to calculate the royalties owing to the First Nation. The issue, of course, dates back to the time of regulated oil prices in Canada. The parties have been litigating over the issue since 1989 with much of the proceedings so far involving interlocutory motions.

http://www.firstnationsdrum.com/2009...royalty-suits/

JUDICIAL CONSIDERATION OF THE INDIAN OIL AND GAS ACT AND REGULATIONS
http://raeandcompany.com/wp-content/...sideration.pdf

http://www.sct-trp.ca/hom/index_e.htm

First Nations' Remarkable Legal Winning Streak

http://thetyee.ca/Books/2014/04/10/Resource-Rulers/

These books, while different in content, share in common the characterization of Indigenous economies as dependent systems. The solution to achieving self-determination is always conflated with free market access. And while these authors are careful to situate the poverty in First Nations communities within a historical context of land dispossession and legislative discrimination, they are equally careful to avoid analyzing inequalities in systems of free market capitalism.

[Cappy]

Hard to believe the Government did not get each payee to sign a release. Huge ###### up if true

[peter12]

With all due respect, troutman, that is exactly the kind of thing a lawyer would say. First Nations have been winning extremely vague cases in court - the recent Chilcotin case being a good example - but it has not translated into any appreciable difference in living standards in the actual communities. More-so, these court case settlements inevitably get divided up between lawyers, consultants, and the community elites. In some cases in Treaty 8, up to half of settlements went to third parties. Meanwhile, it is exceptionally common for community members to hold out hope for the big lottery win, whether through Land Treaty Entitlement or through a big resource revenue program.

This is not the solution to the absolute poverty and social nihilism that is prevalent in native communities. A more beneficial perspective is to look at the historical causes of the Indian Act, its actual effect on the economic and political behaviour of First Nations, the limitations of political action, and the realities of a free market that has created enormous wealth but left First Nations people behind. The crisis-level shortage of reserve housing, for instance, would very much benefit from a structure of First Nation property rights.

[troutman]

I understand better what you are saying now after your last post (the living standards rather than the litigation itself), and I can agree with that. Earlier you seemed to be speaking about something else.

Most of these cases are founded on some claim that the Federal Government failed in their fiduciary duty towards First Nations. I am interested in that as a legal argument. I know lawyers and experts that worked on the Samson case.

The legal arguments can be successful, but that does not necessarily translate into better conditions.

[peter12]

Originally Posted by troutman

I understand better what you are saying now after your last post (the living standards rather than the litigation itself), and I can agree with that. Earlier you seemed to be speaking about something else.

Most of these cases are founded on some claim that the Federal Government failed in their fiduciary duty towards First Nations. I am interested in that as a legal argument. I know lawyers and experts that worked on the Samson case.

The legal arguments can be successful, but that does not necessarily translate into better conditions.

Are they interesting? The legal foundations for these cases seem to be shaky. For example, in the Delgamuukw v. British Columbia (1997) oral testimony was judged to be allowable on the same grounds as all other evidence. This is in direction contradiction of fact-finding in the judicial process.

The Chilcoten case that granted aboriginal title failed to mention that there are thirteen entities that call themselves Chilcotin. A lot of the time, the so-called successful rulings muddy the water even further, but they do create more work for the lawyers.

[troutman]

I recommend the legal article written by Rae & Company linked above for an overview. One of the writers was a classmate, and has worked in this area for 20 years.