[Game Takes] Vancouver 3 Flames 2 (OT)

[Bingo]

http://www.calgarypuck.com/2014/12/g...-calgary-2-ot/

[ricardodw]

You have the line-up wrong you indicate that Bollig was in instead of Raymond.

Hartley is confusing the Heck out of me as he goes for win 401 for the 8th try.

Is he punishing Monahan by giving him Byron and Raymond as wingers. These two wingers haven't got a point between them since Byron scored Nov 20th... 14 games for Byron and 10 games for Raymond who last scored Oct 23rd.


Hartley finally had the good sense to not play Diaz and Engelland together. They got their ice time with a real NHL defenseman.

He also figured out as good as Hudler and Gaudreau are with the puck it is impossible for them to break the others team cycle in the defensive zone. While Gaudreau has proven very hard to hit when he has the puck he is taking a beating when he has to do some checking in the Flames zone. Hartley started playing Engelland with them to provide some beef.... and Engelland looked like a real d-man helping out on Gaudreau's goal.

If Mason Raymond was on a 10-game try out the Flames would send him back to juniors.

David Jones a goal, 5 SOG , 4 hits in 11:49 of ice time get only 19 seconds on the PP.

Raymond gets 2:02 of PP time..... Hartley can't believe that Raymond can't score... on the other's guys net

[Poe969]

Hard to pick just one goat. Easy to pick one Mr. Clutch. Johnny is a gamer for sure.

There were so many bad plays and this slump seems to be more and more noticeable in their play as time goes on, some of these guys even seem to be disinterested in the game.

[Vulcan]

Have NHL coaches figured the Flames out? Or are the Flames their own worst enemies because of tension and tight sticks? The club was lights out moving the puck tape to tape and breakouts and transition through November, but now it seems like the team has regressed to chipping pucks out and chipping pucks in instead of pushing the play themselves. Interesting to watch.

That they've figured out the Flames to some extent would be my guess so when the other team is one step ahead of you, you lose confidence.

[Mightyfire89]

Originally Posted by ricardodw

You have the line-up wrong you indicate that Bollig was in instead of Raymond.

Hartley is confusing the Heck out of me as he goes for win 401 for the 8th try.

Is he punishing Monahan by giving him Byron and Raymond as wingers. These two wingers haven't got a point between them since Byron scored Nov 20th... 14 games for Byron and 10 games for Raymond who last scored Oct 23rd.


Hartley finally had the good sense to not play Diaz and Engelland together. They got their ice time with a real NHL defenseman.

He also figured out as good as Hudler and Gaudreau are with the puck it is impossible for them to break the others team cycle in the defensive zone. While Gaudreau has proven very hard to hit when he has the puck he is taking a beating when he has to do some checking in the Flames zone. Hartley started playing Engelland with them to provide some beef.... and Engelland looked like a real d-man helping out on Gaudreau's goal.

If Mason Raymond was on a 10-game try out the Flames would send him back to juniors.

David Jones a goal, 5 SOG , 4 hits in 11:49 of ice time get only 19 seconds on the PP.

Raymond gets 2:02 of PP time..... Hartley can't believe that Raymond can't score... on the other's guys net

I don't understand why Hartley hasn't tried Monahan with Hudler and Gaudreau yet.

[Finger Cookin]

Originally Posted by Jimmy Krack Korn

I don't understand why Hartley hasn't tried Monahan with Hudler and Gaudreau yet.

He tried it in this very game. At least in the first period. Granlund was also between Glencross and Jones, while Jooris was between Colborne and Raymond. The lines were juggled up significantly throughout the game.

[pacde]

I very rarely comment but Im on here quite regularly
A little confused by the comments Ive been reading lately

This comment could be here and it could be in the Cherry thread
I thought this was the best game the Flames have played for quite a while
I thought they were pretty assertive in this game which refers to the Cherry thread

I think Cherry is pretty accurate although overstated - watching the quality chances the Flames get vs the quality chances (I mean chances from the house) of the opposition, this was a game Flames outchanced their opposition - previous several games Ive noticed that the Flames were giving up shots from inside the 20 foot mark pretty regularly and not being assertive enough to get people inside that zone to shoot/deflect/screen etc nearly often enough which is different from the first 20 - 25 games of the season.

Also for people who think intimidation is not part of the game, they havent been close to the sport in a personal way (been in the sport themselves or had a loved one in it). Intimidation is not just about fighting, its a bit of schoolyard mentality - just having the guy on the ice is enough to keep the opposition a split second slower as they glance around and also keep them a split second slower to confront the smaller guys which makes all the difference

just my two bits

[pacde]

- Also want to add that although I think Gaudrau is going to be a great hockey player and he is exciting to watch and does make plays in the offensive zone, in a lot of cases he is still a liability on the ice and Im not convinced that at the moment the net sum is a positive

[Bandwagon In Flames]

Originally Posted by pacde

- Also want to add that although I think Gaudrau is going to be a great hockey player and he is exciting to watch and does make plays in the offensive zone, in a lot of cases he is still a liability on the ice and Im not convinced that at the moment the net sum is a positive

I take it you saw him fall in the offensive zone which led to the opposition scoring a goal a couple games ago. Johnny is amazing at take-aways and was at one point leading the league in that category.

He may not be a physical back-checker but as a LWer, that's not his job either. Him and Hudler are the only consistent scoring forwards on the team, so how can his net sum not be positive?

[pacde]

Originally Posted by Bandwagon In Flames

I take it you saw him fall in the offensive zone which led to the opposition scoring a goal a couple games ago. Johnny is amazing at take-aways and was at one point leading the league in that category.

He may not be a physical back-checker but as a LWer, that's not his job either. Him and Hudler are the only consistent scoring forwards on the team, so how can his net sum not be positive?

Well there is that
the stat regarding takeaways was some time ago - I wonder where that would be now over the last 10 games or so
Against the Canucks he took a won faceoff behind his own net and lost it in the corner in a very vulnerable position - a puck that I suspect he might have cleared easily earlier in the year. The tough part about losing the puck in positions like that one (and others recently) are that his teammates expect more and are already heading up ice in some cases waiting for the pass.

Im not saying I dont like the player, I really do and I dont think the skid is all on him certainly - I think the tough players aren't playing as tough, the goaltending hasn't been as terrific etc

-but I do notice that this player is losing the puck a lot in precarious positions as one might expect from a first year player who handles the puck quite a lot - something that I didnt notice as much earlier in the year

[pacde]

Im not a big stats guy and in fact I mistrust how the numbers are counted so I take all this information with a grain of salt
However - currently Gaudreau is 6th in takeaways with 30 but interestingly he is also tied for 6th in the NHL with Giveaways with 36 tied with TJ Brodie and Tavares. Also interesting to note the Wideman is tied at 7th with 35 giveaways and Tavares is slightly ahead of Gaudreau in takeaways.

Just for reference - it would be interesting to plot that number over time to see what relationship that has to winning or losing as I notice that there are two leafs in the top 3 in takeaways - maybe related to their recent run?

[Goodlad]

Gaudreau is currently 6th in the league with 30 takeaways.

He's also tied for 5th in the league with 36 giveaways. The person he's tied with? TJ Brodie

[pacde]

Originally Posted by Goodlad

Gaudreau is currently 6th in the league with 30 takeaways.

He's also tied for 5th in the league with 36 giveaways. The person he's tied with? TJ Brodie

Yeah, we have three people (two defensemen) among the worst ten players in the NHL in giveaways - Only one Oiler with that honor in Petry

I dont think the stat is a real great measure because it might just mean these guys are trying harder and taking offensive zone risks where others just arent - but still interesting we are the only team with more than one player in that category

[Street Pharmacist]

Originally Posted by pacde

Yeah, we have three people (two defensemen) among the worst ten players in the NHL in giveaways - Only one Oiler with that honor in Petry

I dont think the stat is a real great measure because it might just mean these guys are trying harder and taking offensive zone risks where others just arent - but still interesting we are the only team with more than one player in that category

It's also highly subjective and arena specific

[pacde]

Originally Posted by Street Pharmacist

It's also highly subjective and arena specific

agreed... although that presumably would be the same for all players so I dont know how much difference that makes

[Enoch Root]

Originally Posted by pacde

agreed... although that presumably would be the same for all players so I dont know how much difference that makes

When I see 3 guys in the top 10 in the league on the same team, my first thought is that the person assessing them in their rink might be a tad quicker on the trigger than in some other rinks.

[pacde]

Originally Posted by Enoch Root

When I see 3 guys in the top 10 in the league on the same team, my first thought is that the person assessing them in their rink might be a tad quicker on the trigger than in some other rinks.

You know, Ive turned that kind of argument over in my mind quite a lot but it has a couple problems for me:

1) it assumes the stats are not kept in a professional manner which in todays game I highly doubt. I know the scorekeeper keeps some stats but I highly doubt they keep the stats on giveaways/takeaways so it makes me wonder, who does that exactly? Ive done some scorekeeping and I have to say, its hard to imagine that one or two people keep all the stats - its already a busy job and you dont have much time to enjoy the game

2) it assumes that only one person does that job - but again in todays world if there wasn't some kind of level of agreement, its just not going to go unnoticed

3) suppose someone was there and had a different eye so that they could somehow influence the reality of what was being reported.. wouldnt it makes sense that they would typically err on the other side? I mean you would think the reporting person would under-report rather than over report. I know its possible that someone does over-report, it just doesn't make much sense

[genetic_phreek]

Originally Posted by pacde

I very rarely comment but Im on here quite regularly
A little confused by the comments Ive been reading lately

This comment could be here and it could be in the Cherry thread
I thought this was the best game the Flames have played for quite a while
I thought they were pretty assertive in this game which refers to the Cherry thread

I think Cherry is pretty accurate although overstated - watching the quality chances the Flames get vs the quality chances (I mean chances from the house) of the opposition, this was a game Flames outchanced their opposition - previous several games Ive noticed that the Flames were giving up shots from inside the 20 foot mark pretty regularly and not being assertive enough to get people inside that zone to shoot/deflect/screen etc nearly often enough which is different from the first 20 - 25 games of the season.

Also for people who think intimidation is not part of the game, they havent been close to the sport in a personal way (been in the sport themselves or had a loved one in it). Intimidation is not just about fighting, its a bit of schoolyard mentality - just having the guy on the ice is enough to keep the opposition a split second slower as they glance around and also keep them a split second slower to confront the smaller guys which makes all the difference

just my two bits

I totally agree with this. From a similar post I've added before, it's like walking around with a loaded gun. You feel more safe even if you never have to use it.

[Enoch Root]

Originally Posted by pacde

You know, Ive turned that kind of argument over in my mind quite a lot but it has a couple problems for me:

1) it assumes the stats are not kept in a professional manner which in todays game I highly doubt. I know the scorekeeper keeps some stats but I highly doubt they keep the stats on giveaways/takeaways so it makes me wonder, who does that exactly? Ive done some scorekeeping and I have to say, its hard to imagine that one or two people keep all the stats - its already a busy job and you dont have much time to enjoy the game

2) it assumes that only one person does that job - but again in todays world if there wasn't some kind of level of agreement, its just not going to go unnoticed

3) suppose someone was there and had a different eye so that they could somehow influence the reality of what was being reported.. wouldnt it makes sense that they would typically err on the other side? I mean you would think the reporting person would under-report rather than over report. I know its possible that someone does over-report, it just doesn't make much sense

Simple question: what constitutes a giveaway?

There is some significant grey area here.

And what makes you think someone would 'err' on the other side. They aren't 'erring' at all, they simply have a slightly wider view of what is a giveaway than someone else.

[pacde]

Originally Posted by Enoch Root

Simple question: what constitutes a giveaway?

There is some significant grey area here.

And what makes you think someone would 'err' on the other side. They aren't 'erring' at all, they simply have a slightly wider view of what is a giveaway than someone else.

I cant answer that question because its not been my job but to think there isnt a pretty highly standardized answer to that question seems improbable.

As I said, Ive done some scorekeeping in minor hockey and mistakes are made, you miss things, sometimes something happens and you dont see it. It could be that you think something happened that didnt but that is way more unlikely and there are people around to help you if you have a question (like refs). Its way more likely that you miss something than you see things happen that didnt. Way more likely that you miss a takeaway than you see a takeaway that didnt happen.

On the other hand, this should be fairly simple to prove out if we compare the average reported giveaways/takeaways of teams at the dome as compared to the other buildings... again going on the very tenuous assumption that this is done by a person or couple persons living in the city and attending the games - I just dont think thats the case but I could be wrong.