Toll Roads in Calgary within a decade

[Old Yeller]

http://calgary.ctvnews.ca/toll-roads...ears-1.1808801

Brunnen says currently congestion costs Canadians in our five largest cities about $7.5B annually.

“From 2004 to 2012 Calgary transportation spending increased by 66 per cent per capita while commute times decreased by only 20 per cent. So we’re seeing diminished returns to our investment in transportation spending,” said Brunnen.

Ward 1 Councillor, Ward Sutherland, says toll roads could be a way to charge people from outside the city who use the roads here.

Brunnen is proposing the lanes be set up initially on Crowchild Trail, Glenmore Trail and Deerfoot Trail and says an appropriate level of toll would be about $5 a day for the average user.

I heard this on the radio this morning and with how passionate CP is on the topic of driving/traffic I was surprised there wasn't a thread on this.

First off, commute times have decreased by 20% from 2004 to 2012 in Calgary?!?!?! I'd like to see some data to back that up.

Anyway it seems like they're using the justification of "outsiders are using our roads, they gotta pay as well" to push this on to everyone, or else why not just put up toll booths on major roads into the city?

The article states, and the radio went into a little more detail, but with technology advances there wouldn't actually be any physical toll booths, just something that would scan your license or smart phone payments or something along those lines.

I've never lived anywhere that had toll roads so I'm somewhat ignorant, but the Coquihalla highway used to be a toll road and is now fully paid for because of that, so the model seems to work... however I don't know how much pushback there was initially when the tolls were introduced either.

Regardless if toll roads are coming, I think they have to have a pretty open book policy on where this revenue is going... I mean I would be more inclined to support it if they said something like "With this toll on Crowchild, we can now afford to build a double decker 6 lane bridge across the river".

I'm interested to read other opinions/rants.

[Tyler]

Gonna have to do tolls if the province ever hands Deerfoot back to the City to maintain

[HockeyIlliterate]

I'm always against the idea of constructing roads using taxpayer dollars and then charging tolls on those very same taxpayers in order for them to actually use the road.

Even more disturbing is when road maintenance is supposed to be funded through gasoline taxes, but the government uses tolls as the justification for upkeep/repair costs, without ever reducing the gasoline tax.

[northcrunk]

Bad idea. Knowing our council the toll roads would be used to pay for bike lanes. Wankers.

[Bigtime]

Correct that there should be no physical toll booths you pull up to and pay at. Most likely you'd get a RFD card mounted on your windshield and there would be scanners for them mounted above the roadway.

It is also important to note they are proposing these as HOT lanes, with HOV potentially not having to pay to use them (they also mention perhaps paying a smaller toll). So the question then becomes how does an RFD scanner know if you are a single occupant vehicle one day (and charge $5) and car-pooling the next (and not charge you or charge the reduced rate)?

I did chuckle a little about how this proposal will "take away" a lane of road for those that don't want to pay or be HOV; on the busiest roads in Calgary, and yet the minor 2% of lanes removed from the CBD for the cycle track ignited humongous debate.

[GGG]

I think deerfoot could be greatly improved by implementing ramp metering, a carpool lane as the third lane, and allow people to pay a density based toll to use the third lane. Seattle on the I5 has a set up like this.

This allows people a free option, encourages reducing the number of cars on the road, and allows people to pay extra for a reduced commute time. Ramp metering is also critical to improve flow it puts space between the merging cars and reduces the volume on deerfoot itself. The first target would be the ramp at southland and probably memorial in both directions.

The other problem with tolls is that they don't tax the people who cause sprawl the most. They only tax those living on the outskirts even if they happen to live in a Condo.

[undercoverbrother]

I assume one would have to show their driver's license. You could give a home town discount to those from Calgary, and really stick it to those that live in the parasite communities.

[Bigtime]

I do believe the city has looked at the ramp metering for Deerfoot, perhaps Bunk knows more?

[Maccalus]

Originally Posted by GGG

I think deerfoot could be greatly improved by implementing ramp metering, a carpool lane as the third lane, and allow people to pay a density based toll to use the third lane. Seattle on the I5 has a set up like this.

They would have to get at least 3 lanes for all the length of deerfoot first for this to work.

[burn_this_city]

Originally Posted by Bigtime

I do believe the city has looked at the ramp metering for Deerfoot, perhaps Bunk knows more?

I've asked about this before and didn't get a warm reception. I think ramp meters at some of the worst bottlenecks like Southland and Deerfoot southbound would make a huge difference.

Toll roads aren't equitable because wealthier people can simply pay to travel faster, while people who are lower income can't afford it.

[Muta]

Isn't the idea that a HOT lane would exist, and that you don't have to pay a toll to use the road unless you want to use that specific lane? Basically, if you hate traffic, go into that lane and pay $5.

One benefit is public transit ridership would increase as people become more budget-conscious with their traveling habits, thereby generating more income on that front.

I'm not for complete toll roads (as exist in the US), but I do think some kind of fee for people living outside the City of Calgary that use our infrastructure everyday is intriguing.

[corporatejay]

Originally Posted by burn_this_city

I've asked about this before and didn't get a warm reception. I think ramp meters at some of the worst bottlenecks like Southland and Deerfoot southbound would make a huge difference.

Toll roads aren't equitable because wealthier people can simply pay to travel faster, while people who are lower income can't afford it.

So? Who said it should be equitable?

[foshizzle11]

Originally Posted by Maccalus

They would have to get at least 3 lanes for all the length of deerfoot first for this to work.

where doesn't it have 3 lanes? I thought it was 3 lanes in the city from start to end. The only place I can think of is the bridge over the Bow by Anderson. Are there any other places?

[undercoverbrother]

Originally Posted by Muta

Isn't the idea that a HOT lane would exist, and that you don't have to pay a toll to use the road unless you want to use that specific lane? Basically, if you hate traffic, go into that lane and pay $5.

One benefit is public transit ridership would increase as people become more budget-conscious with their traveling habits, thereby generating more income on that front.

I'm not for complete toll roads (as exist in the US), but I do think some kind of fee for people living outside the City of Calgary that use our infrastructure everyday is intriguing.

So the HOT lane would use one of those overhead "toll booth" and the user has a pre-paid readable device on their windshield. There need for old shool "bricks and mortar" toll booth is gone. I know that in the states these exist.

[burn_this_city]

Originally Posted by corporatejay

So? Who said it should be equitable?

It was built by tax payers, if this was a brand new road funded by tolls it would be a different story.

[nickerjones]

In Oklahoma we had plenty of toll roads. Most of them were for spurs that connected different highways so you didn't have to drive 40 minutes to get to a place that should only take 15. 5 bucks a day is quite steep though. In Oklahoma the tolls are between .35- 1.00 each way. Of course there is the H.E Bailey Turnpike that connects Oklahoma City and Tulsa that is 4 dollars each way (90 miles). Oklahoma City has only one main toll road actually in the city. That connects I-40 to I-235 to I-35. It has 3 lanes each way and costs 1.00 ( maybe a bit more now) to drive the length of.

[foshizzle11]

I also wouldn't mind the toll road but only during regular commuting hours (weekdays).

and if they are going to do it on those 3 roads, they should consider doing it on Stony Trail as well.

More people need to think about commuting in a different way. Maybe more bike lanes is a good idea, more people could ride to work. Or maybe with the revenue they can make significant improvements to the C-train system.

Would people start to avoid Deerfoot and other major routes to avoid the tolls? Would that cause issues in other places?

[Muta]

Originally Posted by fotze

But they buy things in Calgary, so that more than covers the costs. Even though Calgarians do as well, and in greater numbers, making that point a wash at best. So yeah.

Can't outsiders buy things in Calgary and still pay the toll? There's many things you can only get in Calgary no matter where you live. And, what if the toll is only implemented during Monday to Friday during work hours? People can still come into the city to buy stuff on the evenings and weekends.

[Ozy_Flame]

Three lane highway in Calgary:

Express Lane: Toll-managed, RFD card membership required
Carpool Lane: Cars with 2 or more occupants (not sure how to manage, but police supervision; ticket if used inappropriately)
Regular Lane: Everyone else

Also, lanes should be color-coded, road reflectors installed (as part of color coordination), and signage should be solar powered


As Muta alluded to, would love to see out-of-towners have to pay a fee to use our City of Calgary roads on a daily basis, but that would be hard to govern.

[Kybosh]

$5/day? Holy hell, that's around $125 to drive a bit quicker each month while likely making the commutes even longer for others. Are they planning on constructing entirely new lanes here or just removing existing ones?

The study seemed to argue that people are spending too much time commuting and less time contributing to the economy through work. Seems to me that something like this would allow richer people to maybe contribute more through work and paying this toll, but the peons will get even further behind.