Another vehicle goes over the median on Glenmore and kills a person - Calgarypuck Forums - The Unofficial Calgary Flames Fan Community

puckluck2 · 02-09-2014, 11:58 AM

I can not believe this has happened mere months after a child was killed around the same spot. Make the damn median higher already FFS.

http://www.calgaryherald.com/touch/n...tml?rel=841484

ken0042 · 02-09-2014, 12:35 PM

From your article, it sounds like speed was a factor in both crashes. I question how high the median should be; are there other reasons they don't build them so high to begin with? For example, on a freeway if the median was too high, emergency crews would have to drive around instead of stopping in the opposite direction when responding to an emergency. Could those precious minutes be the reason?

As I said, I don't know- just throwing it out there that there could be design reasons for the height.

CMPunk · 02-09-2014, 12:37 PM

How much higher do you need? And for how far? Stupidity is the cause, not the medians.

puckluck2 · 02-09-2014, 12:39 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by CMPunk

How much higher do you need? And for how far? Stupidity is the cause, not the medians.

We protect against stupidity all the time. The medians are there anyways, why not make them higher so trucks can't cross the median and kill a completely innocent elderly person or a child.

Acey · 02-09-2014, 12:39 PM

Indeed, the height is not arbitrary...

Quote:

It is designed to minimize vehicle damage in cases of incidental contact while still preventing the crossover case of a head-on collision...

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The 42-inch-high Ontario Tall Wall barrier is a taller version of the Jersey. It was developed by the Department of Highways in its namesake Canadian province after it conducted crash tests of the Jersey in 1968, and it was ahead of its time. The growth in vehicle size over the past decade has forced most state highway departments to rethink the height of their barriers, as the 32-inch-high design has proved somewhat vulnerable to sport-utility vehicles and oversize trucks on today’s highways. While the 32-inch barrier remains the Federal Highway Administration minimum standard, New York, Massachusetts, and even New Jersey have adopted the 42-inch...

The new barriers along Stoney Trail SE are not traditionally shaped Jersey barriers but constant slope barriers which are less susceptible to this problem. Look at Deerfoot between 22X and Cranston Ave/Seton Blvd, or the new barriers in the median of Airport Trail.

puckluck2 · 02-09-2014, 12:45 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ken0042

From your article, it sounds like speed was a factor in both crashes. I question how high the median should be; are there other reasons they don't build them so high to begin with? For example, on a freeway if the median was too high, emergency crews would have to drive around instead of stopping in the opposite direction when responding to an emergency. Could those precious minutes be the reason?

As I said, I don't know- just throwing it out there that there could be design reasons for the height.

I know speed was a factor but the medians are there for the worst case scenario. For crashes like this, and it failed to do its job. I'm no EMS expert but I've never seen an ambulance stop on the opposite side of the median. And even so I don't think it's fair to have a big design flaw for that reason.

I know in the last crash they thought the snow banks made the vehicle propel over it but now with no snow banks I think they'll at least look at making it higher.

Coys1882 · 02-09-2014, 12:47 PM

I don't know if it's the median so much as it's people and the feeling of invulnerability they have in their big trucks.

ken0042 · 02-09-2014, 12:52 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by puckluck2

I'm no EMS expert but I've never seen an ambulance stop on the opposite side of the median. And even so I don't think it's fair to have a big design flaw for that reason.

I actually have seen it several times; more often by fire trucks than anything else.

On the day of the crash we had passed the scene just minutes before the accident. The person I was car pooling with had been going 60 due to the road conditions at the time, and that was the speed of most of the cars. However we were passed by people doing well over 80; and I'd even guess a few doing over 100.

puckluck2 · 02-09-2014, 12:59 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ken0042

I actually have seen it several times; more often by fire trucks than anything else.

On the day of the crash we had passed the scene just minutes before the accident. The person I was car pooling with had been going 60 due to the road conditions at the time, and that was the speed of most of the cars. However we were passed by people doing well over 80; and I'd even guess a few doing over 100.

Ok, but that is the first I've heard of that happening and I highly doubt that is the reason.

And I don't deny speed was the main factor in the crashes and a problem but the medians are there for that reason. The same reason medians on Deerfoot had to be put up. We shouldn't just say "meh, it's stupid big trucks and their feeling of invulnerability" The kid and elderly women who was killed weren't speeding or being stupid.

puckluck2 · 02-09-2014, 01:04 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Coys1882

I don't know if it's the median so much as it's people and the feeling of invulnerability they have in their big trucks.

I'm sure you'd have that same attitude if it was your grandma or kid who was killed because the stupid actions of another driver and a median not being built high enough.

ken0042 · 02-09-2014, 01:05 PM

And I'm not saying that must be the reason. I'm just thinking there is likely one; and throwing out one situation.

Another possibility, do high medians affect other people's driving? For example, are some timid drivers afraid and might be tempted to swerve into the next lane?

I just think the "people have died- do something now" line of thinking may not always be the best. We see that after C-train faitalities; people come up with all kinds of ideas on how to make things safer. At some point personal safety needs to become a personal responsibility.

puckluck2 · 02-09-2014, 01:20 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ken0042

And I'm not saying that must be the reason. I'm just thinking there is likely one; and throwing out one situation.

Another possibility, do high medians affect other people's driving? For example, are some timid drivers afraid and might be tempted to swerve into the next lane?

Well why are they higher in other areas? I know you're just throwing it out there but it still doesn't make sense.

Quote:

I just think the "people have died- do something now" line of thinking may not always be the best. We see that after C-train faitalities; people come up with all kinds of ideas on how to make things safer. At some point personal safety needs to become a personal responsibility.

That line of thinking is the best line of thinking. Better than the "drivers are stupid, bad truck drivers" line of thinking.

Personal safety is a personal responsibility which is why I want the median up. The people who were killed were not in control of their personal safety in any way, shape, or form.

Northendzone · 02-09-2014, 01:22 PM

I passed thru that area at about 11 am, at that time I felt the road conditions were fine.

I was doing about 70 or so.

I know there have been two similar accidents in one season, but how many more like this has there been in the past 10 yrs?

Swarly · 02-09-2014, 01:29 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ken0042

...
I just think the "people have died- do something now" line of thinking may not always be the best. We see that after C-train faitalities; people come up with all kinds of ideas on how to make things safer. At some point personal safety needs to become a personal responsibility.

Quote:

Originally Posted by puckluck2

That line of thinking is the best line of thinking. Better than the "drivers are stupid, bad truck drivers" line of thinking.

Personal safety is a personal responsibility which is why I want the median up. The people who were killed were not in control of their personal safety in any way, shape, or form.

knee-jerk reactions are almost never the best line of thinking

Acey · 02-09-2014, 01:29 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ken0042

I just think the "people have died- do something now" line of thinking may not always be the best.

It's not the best, but nothing is going to get done otherwise. CPS telling people to "slow down" is going to be far less effective (i.e., zero) than a bunch of people dying on Glenmore which might actually force change; especially in a place where no driver training or common sense is required to obtain a license.

Shawnski · 02-09-2014, 01:30 PM

I can give you a personal example of why even if the barriers were raised to five feet it may not be enough.

Last summer, I was heading eastbound Glenmore, just before Deerfoot.

Was in the left most lane when I saw, and was mesmerized by, a car flying over the meridian at me.

Luckily for me, it wrapped itself around a pillar just before I passed by.

At point of impact, the lowest part of that vehicle was at least three feet over the barrier.

There was no snow, or ice... the roads were bare and dry.

puckluck2 · 02-09-2014, 01:33 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Swarly

knee-jerk reactions are almost never the best line of thinking

So give me one good reason in your opinion why the medians shouldn't be higher. Just one. One is all I ask for and it can not be money. Go ahead.

worth · 02-09-2014, 01:41 PM

If people are going over the median, there is a problem regardless of the causes. Or stupiditynof people. It needs to be reviewed immediately and a solution proposed and implemented whether that is a median change, or clearing of the gravel or other factors.

Acey · 02-09-2014, 01:46 PM

In the interim, you can make sure all plowing on Glenmore goes to the outside shoulders, for starters... but beyond that there's not much you can do beside lowering the speed limit or building a taller barrier and/or replacing them all with constant slope. In that case, they'll look at the cost of doing it versus the potential benefit, decide that these 2 fatal crashes are anomalous, and nothing will get done. Based on Shawnski's experience, there's nothing you can do aside from a wide 30+ metre grass median a la Stoney Trail.

RogerWilco · 02-09-2014, 01:52 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by puckluck2

I know speed was a factor but the medians are there for the worst case scenario. For crashes like this, and it failed to do its job. I'm no EMS expert but I've never seen an ambulance stop on the opposite side of the median. And even so I don't think it's fair to have a big design flaw for that reason.

I know in the last crash they thought the snow banks made the vehicle propel over it but now with no snow banks I think they'll at least look at making it higher.

I drove by this crash yesterday on the way to Chinook. A bunch of the emergency vehicles were on the west bound side of the median.