Canadian Franchises

[troutman]

Is it a random coincidence that all of the Canadian markets seem to be struggling. EDM, CGY, OTT and WIN are awful. TOR and MTL are average teams that seem better than they are by playing in a weak Conference. VAN is still competitive, but on the decline.

The Canadian Dollar is at a three year low:

http://ca.finance.yahoo.com/news/can...140041715.html

Why aren't the Canadian teams competitive on the ice?

[Coach]

They're struggling on the ice, but theyre far from struggling financially. They have made so much money since the dollar parred up that I think it will take a while (and a much more dramatic drop in the dollar) to really have a large effect. As long as the dollar remains above ~.85 I don't think it will much of issue. Maybe for a team like Winnipeg, but even then they have years of committed season ticket holders I think they'll be alright.

[Clever_Iggy]

Over the long haul, Montreal and Toronto will be fine.

Calgary's fans are fickle. The Flames are still selling out but the wait list for season tickets moved dramatically last year and the team counts on corporate tickets - the longer the team stays on the outside looking in, the harder it will be for companies to justify the expense.

I don't know much about Vancouver or Ottawa but I would imagine the former is akin to the Flames.

I think the Oilers and Jets are and should be the most concerned with a prolonged period of crappy hockey combined with a weaker dollar. Even at $0.85, 15% on top of the cap hit is brutal. Regardless of opinion to whether Winnipeg should have gotten a team again, the pure economics of a smaller population, smaller corporate pool and smaller arena is going to catch up to the franchise if this drags on.

Winning teams can whether the storm. Unfortunately, the two teams that are winning are ones that could survive no matter what.

[codynw]

Ottawa may not be good, but I believe they're going to make the playoffs. They'll probably push out Toronto.

[PeteMoss]

Originally Posted by troutman

Is it a random coincidence that all of the Canadian markets seem to be struggling. EDM, CGY, OTT and WIN are awful. TOR and MTL are average teams that seem better than they are by playing in a weak Conference. VAN is still competitive, but on the decline.

The Canadian Dollar is at a three year low:

http://ca.finance.yahoo.com/news/can...140041715.html

Can the Canadian teams be competitive?

Considering the dollar was at $0.97 when the season started and none of the teams have dumped salary... it doesn't mean anything to this year's record.

Going forward.. maybe to teams like Winnipeg or Ottawa... the rest unless it goes back to $0.65 doubtful. They'd just be rich instead of super rich (Montreal/Toronto/Vancouver will still be super rich)

[CliffFletcher]

Originally Posted by Clever_Iggy

Calgary's fans are fickle. The Flames are still selling out but the wait list for season tickets moved dramatically last year and the team counts on corporate tickets - the longer the team stays on the outside looking in, the harder it will be for companies to justify the expense.

I disagree. People forget that back in the 90s when the team was struggling to fill the dome the economy in Alberta wasn't anywhere near as strong as it is today. Corporate Calgary has a lot of dough, and I don't believe the fortunes of the team on the ice have much influence on corporate schmooze-fests. It's NHL hockey. Are energy companies going to start taking clients to Theater Calgary to impress them?

[Clever_Iggy]

Originally Posted by CliffFletcher

I disagree. People forget that back in the 90s when the team was struggling to fill the dome the economy in Alberta wasn't anywhere near as strong as it is today. Corporate Calgary has a lot of dough, and I don't believe the fortunes of the team on the ice have much influence on corporate schmooze-fests. It's NHL hockey. Are energy companies going to start taking clients to Theater Calgary to impress them?

From the vantage point of someone who is with an energy company and uses Avison Young tickets to impress customers, I've noticed a significant decline in demand for tickets. If this keeps up for 4-5 more years, it's going to be harder and harder to justify them.

As a season ticket holder, I know the demand for season tickets has dropped (a person on the waiting list moved from 450 to 122 this year - a sharp uptick compared to previous years) and trying to sell tickets is getting tougher. Our seats beside us went for $10 a piece last night (section 217 row 20) and the two seats to the other side of us were empty.

I'm not saying its imminent nor critical, but the tolerance for uncompetitive hockey is shorter here, IMO.

[habernac]

A conversation I've had for years with a friend of mine. Why do most Canadian franchises have terrible management? It's not the dollar, it's the people who are running the teams. You'd think being in the country that invented the damn sport we'd be smart enough to hire the best and brightest.

[19Yzerman19]

Your premise is flawed. Each team is unique in its circumstances.

Montreal's pretty good, and really doesn't show any signs of getting bad any time soon, as they have a pretty good balance. There's really not much to worry about there.

Vancouver HAS been very good, and is now on the downhill slope, while Calgary is pretty much at the bottom of the downhill slope - both of which are natural states of evolution for hockey franchises. Again, not the brightest short term future but nothing really to worry about; this is how it goes, there are peaks and valleys.

Toronto and Edmonton are victims of terrible management for the past decade or so. This has nothing to do with being in Canada, other than the fact that increased media scrutiny may have precipitated some bad decisions. They will be capable of being competitive when they stop being run like a tire fire. While an unpopular opinion, and in spite of Kevin Lowe still being there, I think Oilers management has made some very good decisions this year that are being overshadowed by the embedded problems within the organization, which will take some time to purge.

The Jets have basically the same problems as the Thrashers. If they were still in Atlanta, they'd be much the same team, but with lower attendance figures. This isn't a "Canada" problem; again it's specific to the organization. There have been player management decisions that didn't work - crucially the Kovalchuk trade, with Bergfors and Cormier failing to become contributors, and the Hossa trade, with Angelo Esposito not panning out - and it takes some time to recover from that.

I don't think any of these situations is linked to the team's Country of residence.

[Robbob]

Originally Posted by habernac

A conversation I've had for years with a friend of mine. Why do most Canadian franchises have terrible management? It's not the dollar, it's the people who are running the teams. You'd think being in the country that invented the damn sport we'd be smart enough to hire the best and brightest.

I think there is something to this. Canadian teams don't seem to be held to as high accountability as American teams. I think Canadian are willing to wade through more crap, probably because there are less options here (no NFL, NBA, NCAA, NASCAR, etc).

I think a comparable situation Canadian versus American, would be the Islanders and Oilers. Both storied franchises have struggled mightily but the attendance didn't fluctuate as bad for the Oilers as it did for the Islanders. Yeah Nassau is a hole, but is it that much better then Rexall?

[dino7c]

Flames are doing okay with some of the highest ticket prices and a bargain basement payroll

[Resolute 14]

It is not random coincidence that these teams suck. It is coincidence that they are all Canadian.

Vancouver - aging team on the decline
Calgary - year 1 of the rebuild
Edmonton - Unparalleled incompetence in professional sports history
Winnipeg - Bad team with bad management that moved into an impossible conference.
Toronto - Bad team that peaked at mediocrity.
Ottawa - Somewhat surprising that they took a step back.
Montreal - Mediocre roster

[ranchlandsselling]

Isn't it just cycles?
Calgary had a playoff team for a few years after going to game 7 of the SCF and should have been competitive

Edmonton game 7 SCF
Vancouver game 7 SCF.

The majority of teams don't get past the first round. Every year 22 NHL teams suffer a fate equal or only slightly better than what we've been doing for the past bunch. We will get better, Edmonton should get better, Winnipeg was a crappy team before they moved. It's a competitive league, there's 30 teams and Canada represents 23% of them. Given the tendnacy of dominant teams to win more often and Canada hasn't had a dominant team (other than Vancouver who's probably had the best records over the past 8 years) it makes sense that there's not been much winninig and more struggling.

[19Yzerman19]

Originally Posted by Resolute 14

It is not random coincidence that these teams suck. It is coincidence that they are all Canadian.

Vancouver - aging team on the decline
Calgary - year 1 of the rebuild
Edmonton - Unparalleled incompetence in professional sports history
Winnipeg - Bad team with bad management that moved into an impossible conference.
Toronto - Bad team that peaked at mediocrity.
Ottawa - Somewhat surprising that they took a step back.
Montreal - Mediocre roster

Let's be fair and remove the bias, Edmonton has been truly abysmal, but their management failures still don't stack up to the futility that was the Milbury Islanders. I'm not even sure Toronto has been any better in the same time frame, in spite of the results being marginally better for the leafs.

Again, heresy here, but I think Edmonton at least has a chance to fix their problems over the next two years if they do things properly, and I agree with most of the moves made by the team since Mactavish came on board. It's the pre-existing problems that have resulted in them being where they are right now, not the decisions made this year. They will have over 30 million in cap space to work with this summer and as long as they don't go all Darcy Regeir, there's an opportunity there.

I don't understand why anyone thinks Montreal's roster is mediocre. They're very strong in net, have a franchise defenseman and some good players otherwise on the blue line, and have some emerging talents up front - I love Galchenyuk and Eller as assets for that team. They don't have a franchise C, but that's sort of hard to come by. And all of those assets are on the right side of 30.

[Resolute 14]

The Islanders in that time frame were shackled with an incompetent GM, yes. They were also shackled with an owner that wanted payroll kept low. Kevin Lowe and his string of puppets don't have that excuse.

[CaptainCrunch]

Its tough because for the most part Canadian teams either can't sign or don't pursue the real class 1 free agents because they want for some reason to play in the states with the perennial competitive teams.

Lets look at it

Vancouver - I would agree with the whole aging team that is going to have to head into a rebuild in the next year or two. But for some reason they don't seem to attract the really big free agents or don't chase after them. Maybe its because hockey players hate hippies Outlook for competitiveness - The windows closing quickly, they pretty much have to make their move this year and sell future parts for now parts to be competitive in the wild west. If they show a willingness to make their move pre deadline they could grab some great pieces to help them.


Edmonton - Beyond it being a cold city for 10 months of the year, their management group has a terrible reputation with free agents probably due to the Pronger, Peca, Souray, Comrie situation, plus the franchise has not shown any growth towards competiting, the free agents that they do attract are middle tier or fading players that they have to dramatically over pay for. Its more then likely that the Oilers are going to lose stars instead of attracting them. Outlook - Incredibly grim, I've stated many times that this team is going to have to look at rebuilding again. Outside of three and maybe four players theres not much there, they have nothing great in the pipeline that's going to provide help, and with their drafting, trading and signing history they're going to be left in the cold.

Calgary - They've had some success in signing second tier free agents like Hudler and Wiedman for example. But the top guys are simply out of their reach. Calgary is a great city, with a great tax advantage, but has the reputation of probably being some redneck haven. On top of that with the rebuild on good free agents won't come here. Grim - There's some reason for optimism in a few years as there's some nice pieces coming into the system, however those pieces are years away. On the more immediate side of things, this team is going to get worse due to selling of veterans and next year could be a miserable experience for any player in the red and black.

Winnipeg - The perfect storm of future problems. Its not a great hockey market and their current arena situation and the declining Canadian dollar could cast shadows on their survival there. They aren't a good hockey club and Winnipeg is not a destination city. Look for free agents to leave instead of signing there. I still expect Winnipeg to be back on the move in the next decade. Outlook - tepid at best. They have some nice young pieces but they're in a murderers row division, so it could be a while before they catch up to the playoff teams. Its going to be tough for them to sign higher end free agents, the dropping Canadian dollar and revenue starvation as the cap grows could be painful for this team.

Toronto - They seem to have to overpay for free agents, but that's not a problem because their rich. Free Agents don't really sign there if they want to avoid fan pressure. Frankly they are a team with a lot of cracks and they're going to lose out to free agents that want to go for a major U.S. market. Plus Ontario has an oppressive tax system and the cost of living is hugely expensive especially with energy costs going through the roof. Outlook - decent. On one hand the tax structure and cost of living are going to create a downward drag on signing free agents. They've got a decent mid tier club now, but I don't know if there's much in the pipe to get fired up about. Some players avoid signing there to avoid the pressure.

Montreal - You're going to be miserable if you don't speak french, plus the pressures of playing for that franchise, a really oppressive tax system. The only thing that might draw you to them is that they seem to be average competitive and you could be the piece that puts you over the top. Outlook - maybe decent. They're a fairly competitive club with some nice young pieces, but they're going to have to make their moves soon. I still think they're too small to be a serious playoff threat but they play in a weak conference so they could make a run if they get goaltending. Not sure about long term success here. Quebec is expensive and fiscally backwards. If your English you might not want to go there by choice especially with the opressive language and school laws.


Ottawa - Really fell flat on their faces, there's some question about the wealth of the owner and they're struggling a bit revenue wise. They're just a bad hockey team but have a lot of nifty young pieces so they could be a franchise on the rise. Ottawa is a pretty cool city, but players might see it differently due to reputation. Again the People's Republic Ontario has a really bad tax structure and costs of living is on the rise to really high levels there. Outlook - slightly positive. This franchise has holes, but a lot of good young parts and seem to have a decent GM and coach. Again the cost of living situation is going to be a real drag on getting those final pieces through free agency. I still think that they're going to become a floor team as the cap continues to rise.

[CliffFletcher]

Originally Posted by Robbob

I think there is something to this. Canadian teams don't seem to be held to as high accountability as American teams. I think Canadian are willing to wade through more crap, probably because there are less options here (no NFL, NBA, NCAA, NASCAR, etc).

I think a comparable situation Canadian versus American, would be the Islanders and Oilers. Both storied franchises have struggled mightily but the attendance didn't fluctuate as bad for the Oilers as it did for the Islanders. Yeah Nassau is a hole, but is it that much better then Rexall?

I see it almost as the opposite. Teams in the U.S. can survive for years and years of skittering along the bottom of the standings,with 12,000 people in the stands. Just look at the Islanders and Panthers.

In Canada, there's such intense public and media scrutiny that the franchises are terrified of a run of bad seasons, so they make short-term decisions in a desperate bid to cling to mediocrity. The Leafs are the poster child of this, though the Flames took this approach for a long time too.

It wouldn't surprise me at all if the Sabres rebuild is more patient and, in the end, more successful than the Flames. At some point, Flames upper brass won't be able to resist the temptation to trade away picks or throw around money to shortcut the process.

[CaptainYooh]

Originally Posted by troutman

...
Why aren't the Canadian teams competitive on the ice?

Canadian team owners, just like the majority of Canadians, love the game of hockey. American team owners love the business of hockey and most Americans don't care about hockey. This explains most of it. It has been stated many times by players that playing in US is much easier on them than playing in Canada by not being in the spotlight all the time. Players choose to go to a US team when given a choice and matching financials. Large US teams in metropolitan centres have additional attraction for the talent because of what those metropolitan centres offer to the players and their families. Better climate is the additional attraction to hockey players and their families offered by the southern teams. Overall, US has a better magnet for better players that any Canadian team can offer.

Notable exceptions are Pittsburgh and Detroit, as both cities are lousy places. But Pittsburgh has been through a horrible slump and was able to recover only by winning the Crosby sweepstakes.

Detroit, however, remains a mystery to me. How the hell have they managed to maintain a competitive team throughout all these years without tanking and without drafting from the very top is beyond my comprehension. I just revere their management and ownership systems. What is mind-boggling to me is why could Canadian teams not learn from them something?

[19Yzerman19]

Incidentally, if anyone wants some really good Schadenfreude, you owe it to yourself to follow the Leafs Nation blog. You can almost feel their tears.

http://theleafsnation.com/2014/1/9/t...14-swear-words

^This is just actually hilarious. Recorded during the Leafs' 6-1 loss to the Hurricanes yesterday, when they realize JM Liles scored the 4-1 goal Dangle just loses it.

[Ashasx]

Canadian teams (except the Oilers) get scrutinized for being bad and picking high. It seems that Canadian teams get one year at the bottom of the standings, and if they haven't turned it around after that, management is bad and the team needs a overhaul.

So managers feel the pressure and make short-sighted moves that may get the team in the last playoff spot for a year or two at the expense of young talent and/or draft picks.