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Old 01-08-2014, 10:13 PM   #1
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Default Discussion to turn 11th & 12th Ave. into two-way streets

http://metronews.ca/news/calgary/903...-go-both-ways/

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He knows it will be unpopular with some drivers who use 11 and 12 Avenues as thoroughfares, but Coun. Evan Woolley would like to see those one-way routes changed to two-way traffic. . . Sunalta Community Association president Nick Twyman is supportive of the idea, saying it would make the avenues “more livable” for area residents and “less like freeways through our neighbourhood.”
I like this idea. 11th and 12th are two busy roads and them along with the underpasses do act as a barrier between downtown and the surrounding communities.
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Old 01-08-2014, 10:43 PM   #2
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Originally Posted by Temporary_User View Post
http://metronews.ca/news/calgary/903...-go-both-ways/

I like this idea. 11th and 12th are two busy roads and them along with the underpasses do act as a barrier between downtown and the surrounding communities.
No, you have 17,16,15,14,13, and 10th ave as roads to build community around. Roads need to be designed to move people. This would be a disaster even for those who live in the area. Also how does a 2 way street even help. It makes being a pedestrian more inconvenient as advanced lefts would eat into walk time.
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Old 01-08-2014, 10:59 PM   #3
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I would think parking would also suffer. The idea is just a bad idea.
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Old 01-08-2014, 11:01 PM   #4
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I work on 11th and would hate to see this implemented.
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Old 01-08-2014, 11:09 PM   #5
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I live on 12th and I walk a lot of places.

I really can't see how a two-way street would make things more walk-friendly than it already is. Any traffic engineer/urban planning specialist want to chime in here?

I'm thinking it would make sense if the one way streets weren't paired, like 11th and 12th are, and don't have ample parking like 11th and 12th do. A two way street usually would mean double the parking (1 parking lane on each side).

So no, a bad idea.
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Old 01-08-2014, 11:10 PM   #6
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I live on 11th and would hate to see this implemented.
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Old 01-08-2014, 11:49 PM   #7
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The idea was studied about 10 years ago at a fairly high level. The report essentially stated that it was a feasible idea, but it would be helpful especially to signalize 10th Ave and 14th Street, which has since happened. West LRT has also take some pressure of PM peak westbound on 11th (a road I drive everyday, as well as 12th. Congestion really isn't bad.

There are benefits to two way conversion for pedestrian experience, particularly because it slows vehicle speed, especially off-peak when cars tend to race on these avenues. On coming traffic, especially on a bit of a tighter right of way does slow cars down a bit.

http://www.calgary.ca/PDA/LUPP/Docum...f?noredirect=1

That report quoted this oft used argument about the benefit of two way:

“Essentially, the ‘philosophy’ of returning to two-way streets
where appropriate is based upon the fact that the operation of
the street should be maximized for its use throughout the day,
rather than for a relatively short period of time each morning
and afternoon. A street flowing very quickly during AM and PM
rush hours often means a dead street the remainder of the
day...”

“The benefits of such operational changes are clear. Retailers
express a strong preference for two-directional traffic in front of
their establishments... For pedestrians, the slower speeds that
result, the increase in safety in crossing fewer lanes of traffic
moving in the same direction at higher speeds, and the more
‘pedestrian-friendly’ environments that result are all significant
benefits. For the intermittent or casual visitor to downtown, the
one-way street grid often presents a confusing circulation
pattern and frustration at the inability to find a specific location
and/or be taken blocks out one’s way in trying to return to a
destination or find off-street parking.”

“The major objections to two-way traffic often come from daily
commuters, who understand intuitively that the current one-way
system is prioritized for their peak-hour commuting, and that a
change to two-way operation will likely mean a somewhat
reduced convenience.”


However, one-ways tend to get blamed for the ills of many streets and conversion seen as a panacea to fixing them. I don't think this is the case. There are a lot of other things that should happen to make 11th and 12th (and 10th for that matter) better for pedestrian experience. This starts with the allocation of the right of way. Especially along 12th, there are stretches with very narrow sidewalks and unnecessarily wide lanes, especially curb lanes. You could give more space to the sidewalk without affecting the function of the roadway. Second, the design of the pedestrian space itself is poor - misaligned curbs, terrible street lights, cluttered and disorganized space, poor street furniture and a lack of street trees. Do what was done to the non-station blocks on 7th avenue to these three avenues, and then you'll have a much better streetscape and pedestrian experience with or without conversion.

Downtown Portland for instance is one of the most pedestrian-friendly downtowns and it is exclusively one way streets - it's just that its sidewalk space is adequate and well designed. And the roadway is tight enough that cars move at a reasonable pace for the context.

I think the idea should be to ask the question "how can we make (drab) 11th and 12th better?" not necessarily assume conversion is the right and only answer. Glad Woolley's thinking about it though.
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Old 01-09-2014, 12:51 AM   #8
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I live on 12th, walk to work everyday, and think this is a horrible idea.

From chatting with neighbours I haven't come across anyone in favour of the change.
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Old 01-09-2014, 02:16 AM   #9
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I'm a resident of Mission.

Regardless if they keep 11th & 12, one way, I think parking should be removed permanently, on one side of both roads (north side?).

Add another driven lane. Change the direction of that lane (centre), during rush hour if it becomes 2 way, or simply draw in the lane lines if 1 way is retained.
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Old 01-09-2014, 02:42 AM   #10
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bunk View Post

http://www.calgary.ca/PDA/LUPP/Docum...f?noredirect=1

I think the idea should be to ask the question "how can we make (drab) 11th and 12th better?" not necessarily assume conversion is the right and only answer. Glad Woolley's thinking about it though.
Love the idea Bunk and the improvements to Downtown Calgary don't go unnoticed when I come home to visit.
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Old 01-09-2014, 07:51 AM   #11
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Walking home from work, I've noticed that 10th (heading west) and 11th Avenues can often be very congested from around 4:40 to 5:15 (or later) in the evening. Traffic on 11th Ave gets very congested and crawls quite slowly, perhaps due to poorly timed traffic lights all the way to 14th Street.

I fail to see how turning 11th into a two-way street will reduce or alleviate congestion. On the contrary, I think that it would make it much worse.

Additionally, I wonder if traffic congestion would be increased as people try to turn into parking lots that, as far as I can tell, appear to be designed based on the existence of 1-way roads (i.e., Safeway's, Co-Op's, etc).

All-in-all, I'd say that the proposal is a solution in search of a problem.
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Old 01-09-2014, 07:57 AM   #12
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Stupid idea, it's been a one way for years, why should the city change things to cater to people who bought homes or opened businesses in the area knowing traffic was setup that way.
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Old 01-09-2014, 08:02 AM   #13
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One Way Foods & Deli on 11th would have to change their name. So yeah, bad idea.
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Old 01-09-2014, 08:08 AM   #14
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If anything, there should be MORE 1-way streets (ie/ all odds go westbound only, all evens eastbound). I think this would help traffic immensely in the downtown/beltline areas.

The ONLY downside is that someone might have to circle the block to make their turn. Meh.
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Old 01-09-2014, 08:09 AM   #15
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Just take a "quick" drive around downtown Vancouver to see why two-way streets are such a horrible idea. Easily the worst city I've driven in, compared to nearby Seattle which is much easier thanks to more thoughtful street design
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Old 01-09-2014, 08:11 AM   #16
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I tend to agree with the latter part of Bunk's post : 11th and 12th can be improved in a lot of different ways, and a conversion to two-way seems extremely drastic for negligible benefit. I also like the Portland example. I was there this past summer for a couple of days, and a vibrant street life can occur on one-way streets if given the opportunity to happen. There are a lot of things that can help that, and the direction of traffic is fairly low on the list in my mind.
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Old 01-09-2014, 08:29 AM   #17
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Whatever allows people to get to and from their work for that 0.75/24 hour period during the day is the what should be maximized. Who gives a fata about the other 23.25 hours a day. Think of the people who live in Cochrane and Okotoks who rely on these thoroughfares, their commutes are bad enough.
As someone from Cochrane who use these roads everyday I like the one way streets mostly for the current free parking. When I drive my truck downtown there is always parking way back by 17th street and provides me with a nice walk to work. It is a pain in the ass to park a truck in some of the lots downtown. Do they think community natural foods is busy only because it is on a 2 way street on 10th? If you have a good store people will go to it regardless if its on a 1 way street.

The real problem is 14th street. If 14th wouldn't back up then 11th wouldn't back up leaving the core. Once you get around 14th there is no traffic
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Old 01-09-2014, 08:40 AM   #18
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I don't think that a temporary/test conversion would ever work. Most of the intersections are signalized and only aligned for one-way traffic. Turns to and from corresponding N/S streets are also currently set up based on 11th and 12th being one-ways.

The conversion would have to be all or nothing. Which is why I think that it is a little misguided to think that these roads will suddenly become a pedestrian paradise if converted to two-ways. It would be a massive (and expensive) undertaking, have a negative impact on traffic and parking, and would leave the pedestrian experience pretty much the same as it is now. Heck, even if were neutral for cars, there isn't an overwhelming benefit to pedestrians.

On the flip side (and I know that this would never happen anyway), would 17th Avenue die if it were ever converted to a one-way? Not a chance. That road is vibrant because of the businesses on it and the inviting pedestrian infrastructure. So why would 11th and 12th become Meccas for pedestrians if the only thing that is different is two-way traffic?
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Old 01-09-2014, 08:52 AM   #19
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terrible idea
it's just the start of Coun. Evan Woolley's terrible ideas
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Old 01-09-2014, 09:00 AM   #20
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If we convert 11th and 12th to two way traffic, they'll become hotbeds of urban life, just like 10th avenue is...


The best thing for those roads would be better pedestrian design as Bunk mentioned, and increased development of residential with ground floor retail to make it a more complete neighbourhood. The city can control the first, and influence the second through zoning. (Density bonus for ground floor retail?)
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