London's Mayor Chimes In

[arsenal]

Pretty blunt statements by Ken Livingstone.

CNN

Thoughts?

[Cowperson]

"Under foreign occupation and denied a right to vote, denied the right to run your own affairs ... I suspect that if it had happened here in England we would have produced a lot of suicide bombers ourselves,"

I doubt it.

In two world wars, with many different east and west European countries under occupation, suicide bombings didn't appear to happen.

And the Brits certainly don't seem like the "type."

The rest of his statement is a political opinion.

Cowperson

[Bring_Back_Shantz]

I think right now christian faiths are a lot less prone to this type of thing, simply because the bible is pretty clear that suicide is a pretty big no no. But given a different past, I wouldn't be so sure it couldn't be the other way around. I'm no expert, but I'm guessing that the Koran (I know I horribly misspelled it, but I don't know the proper spelling and I figure I'd do it as close to honetically as I could) doens't do much to suggest suicide bombing either, but in areas such as several middle east countries where I'm guessing education is not exactly top notch, it's probably a lot easier to convice people that they'll get their 21 virgins in the afterlife if they just blow themselves up. Could Brittian have spawned suicide bombers given the right circumstances? Possibly, who knows, I mean the bible didn't say much about the Cursades and they happened. So I'd have to say that under the right circumstances any faith or nation could spawn this type of thing.

[arsenal]

Originally posted by Cowperson@Jul 20 2005, 08:08 AM
"Under foreign occupation and denied a right to vote, denied the right to run your own affairs ... I suspect that if it had happened here in England we would have produced a lot of suicide bombers ourselves,"

I doubt it.

In two world wars, with many different east and west European countries under occupation, suicide bombings didn't appear to happen.

And the Brits certainly don't seem like the "type."

The rest of his statement is a political opinion.

Cowperson

That is true, but I don't think suicide attacks took off until Japan started doing it near the end of WWII.

For imperssionable young people, some of the statements in Bin Laden's decleration of war could seem rather reasonable.

"If death is a predetermined must, then it is a shame to die cowardly."

"Who do not die by the sword will die by other reason; many causes are there, but only one death."

And some more here (rather long)

These youth believe in what has been told by Allah and His messenger (Allah's Blessings and Salutations be on him) about the greatness of the reward for the Mujahideen and Martyrs; Allah, the most Exalted said: {And as for those who are slain in the Way of Allah, He will by no means allow their deeds to perish. He will guide them and improve their condition. and cause them to enter the Garden of Paradise which He has made known to them} (Muhammad;47:4-6). Allah, the Exalted, also said: {And do not speak of those who are slain in Allah's way as dead; nay, they are alive, but you do not perceive} (Baqarah; 2:154). His messenger (Allah's Blessings and Salutations be on him) said: "For those who strive in His Cause, Allah prepared a hundred degrees (levels) in paradise; The difference between two degrees is as the distance between heaven and earth." Saheeh Al-Jame' As=Sagheer. He (Allah's Blessings and Salutations be on him) also said: "The best of the martyrs are those who do NOT turn their faces away from the battle till they are killed. They are in the highest level of Jannah (paradise). Their Lord laughs at them (in pleasure), and when your Lord laughs to a slave of His, He will not hold him to an account." Narrated by Ahmad with correct and trustworthy reference. And, "A martyr will not feel the pain of death except how you feel when you are pinched." Saheeh Al-Jame' As-Sagheer. He also said: "A martyr's privileges are guaranteed by Allah; forgiveness with the first gush of his blood, he will be shown his seat in paradise, he will be decorated with the jewels of belief (Imaan), married off to the beautiful ones, protected from the test in the grave, assured security in the day of judgement, crowned with the crown of dignity, a ruby of which is better than this whole world (Dunya) and its entire content, wedded to seventy-two of the pure Houries (beautiful ones of Paradise) and his intercession on the behalf of seventy of his relatives will be accepted." Narrated by Ahmad and At-Tirmidhi (with the correct and trustworthy reference).

Those youths know that the reward in fighting you, the U.S.A., is double the reward of fighting someone not from the People of the Book. They have no intention except to enter paradise by killing you. An infidel, an enemy of God like you, cannot be in the same heaven with his righteous executioner. Our youth chant and recite the word of Allah, the most Exalted

You can read the entire thing here. Although it is rather long, and very verbose.
http://wikisource.org/wiki/Osama_bin_Laden...laration_of_War

[Cowperson]

Originally posted by arsenal@Jul 20 2005, 03:42 PM
And some more here (rather long)

You can read the entire thing here. Although it is rather long, and very verbose.
http://wikisource.org/wiki/Osama_bin_Laden...laration_of_War

This would probably be more instructive than your link:

http://www.b.150m.com/satire/hell.html

Cowperson

[arsenal]

Originally posted by Cowperson@Jul 20 2005, 08:52 AM
This would probably be more instructive than your link:

http://www.b.150m.com/satire/hell.html

Cowperson

[Agamemnon]

Totally agree w/ the Mayor, desperate times call for desperate measures. I'm sure a RAF pilot or two went up with a busted plane or not enough gas or something, knowing he wasn't going to make it back during the Battle of Britain. Sure, there's a difference, but is it a _huge_ difference? I dont' think so. We'll never know how intense British resistance would be to occupation, since the Germans never crossed.

I'm also inclined to believe that the Mayor of London has a better feel of the pulse of the British than, say... us.

[Cowperson]

Originally posted by Agamemnon@Jul 20 2005, 04:07 PM
Totally agree w/ the Mayor, desperate times call for desperate measures. I'm sure a RAF pilot or two went up with a busted plane or not enough gas or something, knowing he wasn't going to make it back during the Battle of Britain. Sure, there's a difference, but is it a _huge_ difference? I dont' think so. We'll never know how intense British resistance would be to occupation, since the Germans never crossed.

I'm also inclined to believe that the Mayor of London has a better feel of the pulse of the British than, say... us.

You're just "sure" or you "know?"

We certainly "know" suicide was common among Japanese ranks in the past and common today in the ranks of Islamic extremists. . . . . and we "know" in the case of the latter that many have come from middle class or even well-to-do families, not exactly the desperate being described by the Mayor of London.

But we certainly don't "know" anything of the kind about the British.

In WWII, a British commander asking for volunteers for a "suicide mission" wasn't uncommon but there was always a back door, wild-ass chance they would come back or live to tell about it after they were captured and more often than not an escape plan with resources would have been available.

Having your plane going down in flames from ack-ack and deciding to dive it into a German troop train at the last moment also doesn't qualify.

Its all a little different than strapping a bomb to your torso, walking into a pile of people and deliberately exploding yourself through forethought and planning, all in the belief that eternal paradise was awaiting you in the next instant as a reward.

No . . . . the Brits don't seem the "sort" who would do that. Nor many other European or Christian cultures, even under occupation.

The Mayor is out of line with that comment. Its a gross exaggeration.

Again, the rest of his statement is simply a political opinion and he's certainly entitled to it.

Cowperson

[Agamemnon]

Originally posted by Cowperson+Jul 20 2005, 04:28 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (Cowperson @ Jul 20 2005, 04:28 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteBegin-Agamemnon@Jul 20 2005, 04:07 PM
Totally agree w/ the Mayor, desperate times call for desperate measures. I'm sure a RAF pilot or two went up with a busted plane or not enough gas or something, knowing he wasn't going to make it back during the Battle of Britain. Sure, there's a difference, but is it a _huge_ difference? I dont' think so. We'll never know how intense British resistance would be to occupation, since the Germans never crossed.

I'm also inclined to believe that the Mayor of London has a better feel of the pulse of the British than, say... us.

You're just "sure" or you "know?"

We certainly "know" suicide was common among Japanese ranks in the past and common today in the ranks of Islamic extremists. . . . . and we "know" in the case of the latter that many have come from middle class or even well-to-do families, not exactly the desperate being described by the Mayor of London.

But we certainly don't "know" anything of the kind about the British.

In WWII, a British commander asking for volunteers for a "suicide mission" wasn't uncommon but there was always a back door, wild-ass chance they would come back or live to tell about it after they were captured and more often than not an escape plan with resources would have been available.

Having your plane going down in flames from ack-ack and deciding to dive it into a German troop train at the last moment also doesn't qualify.

Its all a little different than strapping a bomb to your torso, walking into a pile of people and deliberately exploding yourself through forethought and planning, all in the belief that eternal paradise was awaiting you in the next instant as a reward.

No . . . . the Brits don't seem the "sort" who would do that. Nor many other European or Christian cultures, even under occupation.

The Mayor is out of line with that comment. Its a gross exaggeration.

Again, the rest of his statement is simply a political opinion and he's certainly entitled to it.

Cowperson[/b][/quote]
Fair enough. I don't 'know', but I am 'sure', for whatever that's worth, that British soldiers engaged in missions in which they knew they wouldn't return (as you point out).

No . . . . the Brits don't seem the "sort" who would do that. Nor many other European or Christian cultures, even under occupation.

Do you 'know' that they're not the sort, or do you 'think' they're not the sort? How would anyone know? Brtain has never been invaded, subjugated, and marginlized. We don't know how they would react in that situation. The Japanese engaged in suicide-attacks (again, as you point out), and they're not Muslim. Is it just non-Christians that are 'capable' of this sort of attack?

You're taking the same flying leaps here that I am.

[peter12]

Originally posted by Agamemnon+Jul 20 2005, 10:46 AM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (Agamemnon @ Jul 20 2005, 10:46 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'>

You're just "sure" or you "know?"

We certainly "know" suicide was common among Japanese ranks in the past and common today in the ranks of Islamic extremists. . . . . and we "know" in the case of the latter that many have come from middle class or even well-to-do families, not exactly the desperate being described by the Mayor of London.

But we certainly don't "know" anything of the kind about the British.

In WWII, a British commander asking for volunteers for a "suicide mission" wasn't uncommon but there was always a back door, wild-ass chance they would come back or live to tell about it after they were captured and more often than not an escape plan with resources would have been available.

Having your plane going down in flames from ack-ack and deciding to dive it into a German troop train at the last moment also doesn't qualify.

Its all a little different than strapping a bomb to your torso, walking into a pile of people and deliberately exploding yourself through forethought and planning, all in the belief that eternal paradise was awaiting you in the next instant as a reward.

No . . . . the Brits don't seem the "sort" who would do that. Nor many other European or Christian cultures, even under occupation.

The Mayor is out of line with that comment. Its a gross exaggeration.

Again, the rest of his statement is simply a political opinion and he's certainly entitled to it.

Cowperson

Fair enough. I don't 'know', but I am 'sure', for whatever that's worth, that British soldiers engaged in missions in which they knew they wouldn't return (as you point out).

No . . . . the Brits don't seem the "sort" who would do that. Nor many other European or Christian cultures, even under occupation.

Do you 'know' that they're not the sort, or do you 'think' they're not the sort? How would anyone know? Brtain has never been invaded, subjugated, and marginlized. We don't know how they would react in that situation. The Japanese engaged in suicide-attacks (again, as you point out), and they're not Muslim. Is it just non-Christians that are 'capable' of this sort of attack?

You're taking the same flying leaps here that I am. [/b][/quote]
Britain has been invaded and subjucated twice...

1300 years ago by the Saxons and 1000 years ago by the Normans.

[Looger]

Originally posted by peter12@Jul 20 2005, 04:53 PM
Britain has been invaded and subjucated twice...

1300 years ago by the Saxons and 1000 years ago by the Normans.

every land, everywhere, has at some point been 'invaded and subjugated'.

but since the traditions of the british crown began, some time after the battle of hastings in 1066, it has not happened in that land.

i for one don't think, in general, christian societies produce suicide bombers, the individualism, the greed, is too strong among us.

it is collectivism societies, buddhists, and to a lesser degree muslims, that are more capable. no slam against them, just a fact.

though islam is a 'western religion' there has been ideological influence because of geography, trade, etc. the long-held myth of religious homogenitity (my word!) is quite a joke once one cracks a history text.

buddhists for example have been known to burn themselves in protest, it's not common but it's happened.

imagine burning yourself for a PROTEST!

most likely, you can't imagine that.

exactly.

[Agamemnon]

Britain has been invaded and subjucated twice...

1300 years ago by the Saxons and 1000 years ago by the Normans.

????

We're talking about suicide-bombers. These devices didn't exist 1000 years ago. Thanks for the speed-bump service (sorry, picked that up from Bingo).

Also, if you're going to talk about the Saxon/Normans, you may as well say "England was invaded by the English", given that these are the people that currently make up the English nation.

[Agamemnon]

Originally posted by Looger@Jul 20 2005, 04:59 PM
every land, everywhere, has at some point been 'invaded and subjugated'.

but since the traditions of the british crown began, some time after the battle of hastings in 1066, it has not happened in that land.

i for one don't think, in general, christian societies produce suicide bombers, the individualism, the greed, is too strong among us.

it is collectivism societies, buddhists, and to a lesser degree muslims, that are more capable. no slam against them, just a fact.

though islam is a 'western religion' there has been ideological influence because of geography, trade, etc. the long-held myth of religious homogenitity (my word!) is quite a joke once one cracks a history text.

buddhists for example have been known to burn themselves in protest, it's not common but it's happened.

imagine burning yourself for a PROTEST!

most likely, you can't imagine that.

exactly.

Good points.

I guess my main contention here is that we don't really know. A thouroughly Christian, Western nation has not been conquered and subjugated in the latter half of the 20th century (especially by a non-Christian nation).

We don't know what 'we' would do. I believe we'd act the same as the 'terrorists', under identical circumstances, but I have no way to prove that, just as there is no way, currently, to disprove that. This is all opinion.

[FireFly]

Originally posted by Cowperson@Jul 20 2005, 09:08 AM
"Under foreign occupation and denied a right to vote, denied the right to run your own affairs ... I suspect that if it had happened here in England we would have produced a lot of suicide bombers ourselves,"

I doubt it.

In two world wars, with many different east and west European countries under occupation, suicide bombings didn't appear to happen.

And the Brits certainly don't seem like the "type."

The rest of his statement is a political opinion.

Cowperson

But the Iraqis had an election, and the US is trying to allow them to run their own affairs, but the insurgents keep fighting democracy...

Iraqi Election Timeline

[Looger]

Originally posted by FireFly@Jul 20 2005, 05:34 PM
But the Iraqis had an election, and the US is trying to allow them to run their own affairs, but the insurgents keep fighting democracy...

Iraqi Election Timeline

troops. everywhere. road blocks. etc.

sadly, at this exact point, without all the occupation troops, iraq would become completely lawless, the government is completely incapable of enforcing even basic security for its citizens.

the insurgents are fighting the occupation and its iraqi collaborators.

i'm an advocate of the 'more troops' idea, i mean i disagree with the initial invasion but guess what, you're there, now send in enough troops to get the job done, or go home.

[Abstract]

Originally posted by Cowperson@Jul 20 2005, 03:08 PM

And the Brits certainly don't seem like the "type."

But it was four British people that commited the terrorists attacks so that statement is in itself worthless.

As for Red Ken if he thought before he spoke he would never say anything. He's a political non-entity here.

[Cheese]

welll.....western nations dont use suicide bombers...they use real bombers, and tanks and calvary and ships to do their work. I would also assume they send patrols into enemy territory to do dirty work we never hear about.

Im quite sure the CIA, MI6, Frances version, Germanys version, and every other "western" nation has its own style of "bombers". We just dont feel the need to kill ourselves in the act.

[arsenal]

Originally posted by Abstract+Jul 20 2005, 11:59 AM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (Abstract @ Jul 20 2005, 11:59 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> <!--QuoteBegin-Cowperson@Jul 20 2005, 03:08 PM

And the Brits certainly don't seem like the "type."

But it was four British people that commited the terrorists attacks so that statement is in itself worthless.

As for Red Ken if he thought before he spoke he would never say anything. He's a political non-entity here. [/b][/quote]
I think Cowperson was refering to Christian/Catholic/Jewish etc Brits. The 4 Brits that commited the attacks were Muslim Extremists.

[Cowperson]

Originally posted by Abstract+Jul 20 2005, 06:59 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (Abstract @ Jul 20 2005, 06:59 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> <!--QuoteBegin-Cowperson@Jul 20 2005, 03:08 PM

And the Brits certainly don't seem like the "type."

But it was four British people that commited the terrorists attacks so that statement is in itself worthless.

As for Red Ken if he thought before he spoke he would never say anything. He's a political non-entity here. [/b][/quote]
But it was four British people that commited the terrorists attacks so that statement is in itself worthless.

Technically I suppose (nice comeback!!!) but not of that culture for sure.

Let's face it, the Lord Mayor was referring to, essentially, white, tea-sipping, flower-growing, bowl-headed Brits of average description turning themselves into homicide bombers and frankly I'm saying that's a gross exaggeration, a pretty unlikely outcome of occupation in that country or any East or West European country.

Not unlikely in some cultures in other parts of the world though.

We don't know what 'we' would do. I believe we'd act the same as the 'terrorists', under identical circumstances, but I have no way to prove that, just as there is no way, currently, to disprove that. This is all opinion.

Its a strange opinion to have since you basically have nothing in history to really back it up . . . . which is evidence in itself to the contrary of your own thoughts.

Wishing it were so won't make it so.

If the Chinese invaded Canada and took over the place, would you or I really be motivated to strap bomb packs under our coats, travel to Beijing and explode ourselves in a crowded subway?

No. I don't think that would be a very common thing and I don't think you would have many, if any, volunteers.

That's just not who we are.

You can argue the relative merits of the rest of the Lord Mayor's statement regarding consequences and resulting motivations.

I'm simply quibbling with the idiocy of his suggestion that Britain is overrun with potential suicide bombers in the making among the white lower and middle class if the right motivation is put in front of them. Phew. That's just a stupid thing to say.

Cowperson

[nfotiu]

Originally posted by Cowperson+Jul 20 2005, 07:52 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (Cowperson @ Jul 20 2005, 07:52 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'>

But it was four British people that commited the terrorists attacks so that statement is in itself worthless.

As for Red Ken if he thought before he spoke he would never say anything. He's a political non-entity here.

But it was four British people that commited the terrorists attacks so that statement is in itself worthless.

Technically I suppose (nice comeback!!!) but not of that culture for sure.

Let's face it, the Lord Mayor was referring to, essentially, white, tea-sipping, flower-growing, bowl-headed Brits of average description turning themselves into homicide bombers and frankly I'm saying that's a gross exaggeration, a pretty unlikely outcome of occupation in that country or any East or West European country.

Not unlikely in some cultures in other parts of the world though.

We don't know what 'we' would do. I believe we'd act the same as the 'terrorists', under identical circumstances, but I have no way to prove that, just as there is no way, currently, to disprove that. This is all opinion.

Its a strange opinion to have since you basically have nothing in history to really back it up . . . . which is evidence in itself to the contrary of your own thoughts.

Wishing it were so won't make it so.

If the Chinese invaded Canada and took over the place, would you or I really be motivated to strap bomb packs under our coats, travel to Beijing and explode ourselves in a crowded subway?

No. I don't think that would be a very common thing and I don't think you would have many, if any, volunteers.

That's just not who we are.

You can argue the relative merits of the rest of the Lord Mayor's statement regarding consequences and resulting motivations.

I'm simply quibbling with the idiocy of his suggestion that Britain is overrun with potential suicide bombers in the making among the white lower and middle class if the right motivation is put in front of them. Phew. That's just a stupid thing to say.

Cowperson [/b][/quote]
Are you taking exception that people who are part of a western culture could be terrorists, or just that they could be suicide bombers? The FLQ and IRA are examples of Western society people who felt hopeless enough to resort to terrorism that included bombings, although not suicide bombing I guess. I don't know that the distinction between suicide bombers and regular terrorists is an important one though. It just seems like semantics to me, and is missing the Mayor's point.