Stay classy, Mens Rights Edmonton

[rubecube]

http://globalnews.ca/news/706030/don...spark-outrage/

Let's take a statistically minor issue and use it to trivialize a serious problem.

EDMONTON – Posters spreading a message that Edmonton police have been trying to fight for years with their “Don’t be that guy” campaign is generating mixed reviews, as well as a conversation in our city about sexual assault.

The Mens Rights Edmonton association is taking responsibility for the campaign. One of its members, who did not want to identify himself, says this poster campaign was intended to counter the “Don’t be that guy” campaign that he says made “rape into a gendered issue.”

And the poster in question:

https://twitter.com/KristopherWells/...336448/photo/1

[RedMileDJ]

I can see their point (the Men's group), but I think it could have been done a little different.

I personally know a guy that had his life turned upside down, because a girl accused him of rape. Turns out she was just the jealous type and wanted to get back at him for not calling her after going out a few times. They went to court and everything. This was 3 years ago, and he's still trying to clear his name and stuff.

Once you're accused of something like that, whether you're innocent or not, the label and stigma sticks with you for a long time.

[Street Pharmacist]

Originally Posted by Element55

I can see their point (the Men's group), but I think it could have been done a little different.

I personally know a guy that had his life turned upside down, because a girl accused him of rape. Turns out she was just the jealous type and wanted to get back at him for not calling her after going out a few times. They went to court and everything. This was 3 years ago, and he's still trying to clear his name and stuff.

Once you're accused of something like that, whether you're innocent or not, the label and stigma sticks with you for a long time.

While that's terrible, there are infinitely more stories of women whose life is ruined and were too scared to accuse or press charges

[rubecube]

Originally Posted by Element55

I can see their point (the Men's group), but I think it could have been done a little different.

I personally know a guy that had his life turned upside down, because a girl accused him of rape. Turns out she was just the jealous type and wanted to get back at him for not calling her after going out a few times. They went to court and everything. This was 3 years ago, and he's still trying to clear his name and stuff.

Once you're accused of something like that, whether you're innocent or not, the label and stigma sticks with you for a long time.

The article (I think) notes that the rate for false accusation is around 1-2%, right in line with any other crime. I agree that false accusations can be incredibly damaging, but this is poor form.

[RedMileDJ]

Originally Posted by Street Pharmacist

While that's terrible, there are infinitely more stories of women whose life is ruined and were too scared to accuse or press charges

Totally agree.

Originally Posted by rubecube

The article (I think) notes that the rate for false accusation is around 1-2%, right in line with any other crime. I agree that false accusations can be incredibly damaging, but this is poor form.

Again, totally agree. I think this could have been done a lot better and more sensitive to the issue. Rather than making their own campaign, they just twisted the existing "don't be that guy" campaign. So yes, it does look like it's attacking victims.

[PsYcNeT]

Asking MRAs to be classy is like asking a fish to not be wet.

Of course, if you ask an MRA to be classy, he'll adjust his sport jacket over his anime T-shirt, tilt his fedora and leer at you like it's 1846.

EDIT: MRAs unite!

[kirant]

Originally Posted by PsYcNeT

Asking MRAs to be classy is like asking a fish to not be wet.

Of course, if you ask an MRA to be classy, he'll adjust his sport jacket over his anime T-shirt, tilt his fedora and leer at you like it's 1846.

Oh...oh crap. Be right back. Going to burn some shirts.

All kidding aside, MRAs can actually have a point and I know a few groups (small ones) which attempt to bring the topic up to the right groups in a reasonable manner. One interesting thought for me has been the way Universities set up organizations. The question the group posed was "If there's a woman's support group on campus (for financial and academic advice), should there be a men's support group since men and women have about equal representation at a University? And if there isn't, should we create a pilot project to test if there is a need for one?". And the group in question brought it up with the University's student relations. Whether or not it brings about anything is up to debate, but the point is that we can't blanket any group with an accusation. It's generally vocal minorities that make things sound horrible. If we use the same theory, we could claim that all theists are like WBC or all Flames fans would phone in death threats when the Flames are losing.

Here, there is a point. The fact that it was the focus of a campaign and is such a minor issue makes it a deplorable effort and a negative contribution to what their efforts actually are...but there is a point. I don't even question whether or not it's even fair bring it forth at the moment...it's just a bad idea given the state of the issues around it.

[valo403]

Originally Posted by Street Pharmacist

While that's terrible, there are infinitely more stories of women whose life is ruined and were too scared to accuse or press charges

That's true, but false accusations shouldn't be considered a minor issue simply because there are less of them. Both a false accusation and an actual assault shatter the lives of their victims and should be dealt with harshly.

[PsYcNeT]

Originally Posted by kirant

All kidding aside, MRAs can actually have a point and I know a few groups (small ones) which attempt to bring the topic up to the right groups in a reasonable manner. One interesting thought for me has been the way Universities set up organizations. The question the group posed was "If there's a woman's support group on campus (for financial and academic advice), should there be a men's support group since men and women have about equal representation at a University? And if there isn't, should we create a pilot project?". And the group in question brought it up with the University's student relations. Whether or not it brings about anything is up to debate, but the point is that we can't blanket any group with an accusation. It's generally vocal minorities that make things sound horrible. If we use the same theory, we could claim that all theists are like WBC or all Flames fans would phone in death threats when the Flames are losing.

The problem I see with this, is that MRAs are approaching it as though it's an inequality issue borne of female privilege, when in fact the Women's support group likely exists because of necessity. One would assume that if a Men's support group was required, one would have been started by now (and not out of protest by an MRA group).

Saying "Hey! They have one, why don't we?" as justification is a way ####tier reason to create something rather than "We need one".

[valo403]

Originally Posted by PsYcNeT

The problem I see with this, is that MRAs are approaching it as though it's an inequality issue borne of female privilege, when in fact the Women's support group likely exists because of necessity. One would assume that if a Men's support group was required, one would have been started by now (and not out of protest by an MRA group).

Saying "Hey! They have one, why don't we?" as justification is a way ####tier reason to create something rather than "We need one".

Why? Because something wasn't required previously has no bearing on whether it's required now. Things are shifting, particularly in the educational setting, which could certainly justify a group that helps young men deal with a number of things. It actually seems like the type of thing that a women's rights group would be smart to be actively involved in as I'd guess that a lot of the men who act like general d-bags towards women are doing it out of misplaced anger and jealousy that such a support center could assist with. I certainly agree that the 'we should have one too' reasoning is poor, but dismissing it as simply that is ignoring a number of real issues.

[kirant]

Originally Posted by PsYcNeT

The problem I see with this, is that MRAs are approaching it as though it's an inequality issue borne of female privilege, when in fact the Women's support group likely exists because of necessity. One would assume that if a Men's support group was required, one would have been started by now (and not out of protest by an MRA group).

Saying "Hey! They have one, why don't we?" as justification is a way ####tier reason to create something rather than "We need one".

I am really bad at putting the issue in context: The reason they were addressing the university was to along the lines of "well if one doesn't exist, why?". That question, at least from what I was told by them, puts forth the notion that they were going to ask first if one had existed, but was folded after being no longer needed. They question of "we need one at this campus" can't be answered without pilot projects/experimental data and the group wasn't aware of whether or not one had existed first, a question they needed answered could be answered by a person with more in depth knowledge of the issue - in other words, the student relations. At least, in their view. Again, I don't know exactly how that ended.

[PsYcNeT]

Originally Posted by valo403

Why? Because something wasn't required previously has no bearing on whether it's required now. Things are shifting, particularly in the educational setting, which could certainly justify a group that helps young men deal with a number of things. It actually seems like the type of thing that a women's rights group would be smart to be actively involved in as I'd guess that a lot of the men who act like general d-bags towards women are doing it out of misplaced anger and jealousy that such a support center could assist with. I certainly agree that the 'we should have one too' reasoning is poor, but dismissing it as simply that is ignoring a number of real issues.

Because it's a crappy catalyst for something important.

Folding your arms and holding your breath because your sister got a Barbie Dreamhouse doesn't make it any more necessary that you need one.

If they needed one before this, why had no one brought it up before the internet-fed MRA movement became so loud?

[valo403]

Originally Posted by PsYcNeT

Because it's a crappy catalyst for something important.

Folding your arms and holding your breath because your sister got a Barbie Dreamhouse doesn't make it any more necessary that you need one.

If they needed one before this, why had no one brought it up before the internet-fed MRA movement became so loud?

I'm assuming you didn't read anything beyond the first word of my post, in particular the part where I said "I certainly agree that the 'we should have one too' reasoning is poor, but dismissing it as simply that is ignoring a number of real issues."

Your logic is nonsense. It's akin to arguing that women's rights groups weren't needed in the 1840's because they didn't exist in the 1830's.

[kirant]

Originally Posted by PsYcNeT

If they needed one before this, why had no one brought it up before the internet-fed MRA movement became so loud?

That's always a good question. I'm not aware of my university's history on it. I don't know when the women's group was opened.

I don't disagree that the internet is probably a catalyst here. But, if this group was a movement born from a ####ty source for sake of argument, it doesn't mean that its point is any more or less valid.

[SebC]

I find it telling that "don't make false rape accusations" is somehow an example of rape culture.

[Oling_Roachinen]

I'm in the minority where I believe people shouldn't rape one another or falsely accuse others of rape.

[rubecube]

Originally Posted by PsYcNeT

Because it's a crappy catalyst for something important.

Folding your arms and holding your breath because your sister got a Barbie Dreamhouse doesn't make it any more necessary that you need one.

If they needed one before this, why had no one brought it up before the internet-fed MRA movement became so loud?

Disagree. I think there is a need for support services for men. There are a lot of angry dudes out there. Regardless if you or I think the origins of the anger are wrong or misplaced, it still needs to be dealt with.

I believe men still statistically outnumber women in substance abuse and suicide rates. There are certainly enough escalating problems among young men to justify the existence of a support group.

I would also suggest the present small existence of such groups has more to do with our current and historical normative views on masculinity than anything else.

[PsYcNeT]

Originally Posted by valo403

Your logic is nonsense. It's akin to arguing that women's rights groups weren't needed in the 1840's because they didn't exist in the 1830's.

False equivalence.

Women's rights and men's rights have never been on an even keel, so comparing the two is a pointless exercise. Men have had the opportunity to create something like this for as long as the university has existed. Only now that the waifu-loving misogynist neckbeards have gotten all riled up on Reddit about it, they finally want everything women have, even if they don't need it.

[rubecube]

Originally Posted by SebC

I find it telling that "don't make false rape accusations" is somehow an example of rape culture.

That wasn't my point. I just think the poster is pretty tasteless.

[valo403]

Originally Posted by PsYcNeT

False equivalence.

Women's rights and men's rights have never been on an even keel, so comparing the two is a pointless exercise. Men have had the opportunity to create something like this for as long as the university has existed. Only now that the waifu-loving misogynist neckbeards have gotten all riled up on Reddit about it, they finally want everything women have, even if they don't need it.

It's not a false equivalence because I'm not comparing the two, I'm using it to point out the glaring flaw in your argument that because A didn't exist x number of years ago it isn't needed now. Things change and the needs of people change, this is not a complicated concept. You continue to ignore the fact that there could very well be reasons for such a group, including the shifting roles of men in society, changes in what masculine identity means and a variety of other gender issues. Instead of considering that there are issues that could be addressed, to the benefit of all, you dismiss the very notion, which is a really smart way to do things.