How/Why does Tod Button still have a job? - Calgarypuck Forums - The Unofficial Calgary Flames Fan Community

SoulOfTheFlame · 03-14-2010, 10:19 PM

I really miss the days where Calgary would find "steals" in the draft, picking up players on late picks that turn out to be guys with real value.

Here's what I mean:

1. Sergei Makarov (231st Overall)

2. Gary Suter (180th Overall)

3. Bret Hull (117th)

4. Joey Nieuwendyk (27th Overall - still a STEAL of a 2nd rounder)

5. Theoren Fleury (166th)

6. Jonas Hoglund (222nd - got a good trade return for this guy)

7. German Titov (252nd)

Isn't it the head scout's job to find the diamonds in the rough, to do something with the late picks? This used to be a regular occurrence for Calgary.

Since 2000, the Flames haven't turned a single late rounder into ANYTHING substantial. The only truly serviceable NHLer drafted with a late pick is 7th rounder David Moss. Which, as a third liner, hardly constitutes a steal...

This guy and his team cannot seem to turn our early round picks into anything (The Dion notwithstanding) and never seem to find anything in the later rounds. Todd existed before the D. Sutter era in Calgary, so I don't think it's fair to hang the blame on him...

The guy and his team seem to be pretty incompetent - Why does he still have a job?

arloiginla · 03-14-2010, 10:21 PM

I'm curious to see how Button's late-round performance over the past decade compares with the rest of the 29 NHL teams.

the2bears · 03-14-2010, 10:31 PM

nm... wrong thread.

SoulOfTheFlame · 03-14-2010, 10:32 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by arloiginla

I'm curious to see how Button's late-round performance over the past decade compares with the rest of the 29 NHL teams.

He's found us David Moss... that's about it.

Frankly I don't care how he does against the majority of NHL teams, it can't get much worse can it? He's found us nothing, it's time for a change.

In your work do you look at your peers and say, "it's OK if I suck because they suck too?".

MelBridgeman · 03-14-2010, 10:33 PM

do you understand the concept of diamond in the rough?

TOfan · 03-14-2010, 10:38 PM

late round steals?

how about a first round pick worth keeping.

Azure · 03-14-2010, 10:40 PM

Howse is probably going to be one as well.

Sutter keeps saying that when he came to the Flames the farm system was completely messed up. I agree, but I certainly think he's made some strange picks throughout the years. Chucko being the worst one.

Did we pick Moss? I thought we got him in the Conroy trade?

hkstylez · 03-14-2010, 10:40 PM

I bet Backlund will be traded away in 3 years just like Phaneuf, that is if D.Sutter is still the GM.

arloiginla · 03-14-2010, 10:42 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by SoulOfTheFlame

He's found us David Moss... that's about it.

Frankly I don't care how he does against the majority of NHL teams, it can't get much worse can it? He's found us nothing, it's time for a change.

In your work do you look at your peers and say, "it's OK if I suck because they suck too?".

You miss the point. If his peers don't do any better then maybe your expectations are unrealistic. Most late-round picks never pan out period, regardless of the team.

Sure some teams likely have a better track record than others, but that's the stuff I'd like to see so one can determine how far behind Tod Button and the Flames really are behind the curve, or if they're behind it at all.

You can't just throw out numbers and say "that sucks" without comparing it to some sort of standard.

Not being a Flames apologist here, as I suspect the drafting hasn't been up to snuff either, but I'd like to see a comparison before I make a judgment call on it.

bubbsy · 03-14-2010, 10:50 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by hkstylez

I bet Backlund will be traded away in 3 years just like Phaneuf, that is if D.Sutter is still the GM.

no...

he won't be given a HONEST chance to top line minutes, in favour for older guys. Eventually, he will be traded at the deadline for more older players.

think kobesew, lombardi, boyd (late round pick).

Dorkmaster · 03-14-2010, 10:55 PM

Adam Pardy? Brett Sutter looks decent. You have Brodie, Negrin, Aulie, Erixon looking good. Howse and Wahl look decent. Drafting hasn't been amazing, but it definitely hasn't been terrible.

Nothing ground breaking, but it hasn't been that bad. You win some you lose some. Canucks managed to draft some decent players low in the draft then end up drafting Patrick White with their first.

Probably the only team that I can think of off the top of my head that consistently find solid players in the low rounds is Toronto, with Gunnarson, Stralman, Kulemin being some recent picks.

SoulOfTheFlame · 03-14-2010, 11:09 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dorkmaster

Adam Pardy? Brett Sutter looks decent. You have Brodie, Negrin, Aulie, Erixon looking good. Howse and Wahl look decent. Drafting hasn't been amazing, but it definitely hasn't been terrible.

Nothing ground breaking, but it hasn't been that bad. You win some you lose some. Canucks managed to draft some decent players low in the draft then end up drafting Patrick White with their first.

Probably the only team that I can think of off the top of my head that consistently find solid players in the low rounds is Toronto, with Gunnarson, Stralman, Kulemin being some recent picks.

I don't want to include guys who are still prospects in this thread. The players you mentioned (with the exception of Pardy - who is barely an NHLer, having lost his job to Steve Staios) are not really worth anything until they actually make an impact at the NHL level. Erixon was a first rounder, you should be Drafting at least NHLers with your 1st round picks, so I don't think he counts as a steal. Negrin might one day, but he's still projecting to be a 3-6th Defenseman...

SoulOfTheFlame · 03-14-2010, 11:10 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by MelBridgeman

do you understand the concept of diamond in the rough?

Care to explain your point further?

CGY12 · 03-14-2010, 11:12 PM

The problem has been our top end picks more than our late round picks.

Dorkmaster · 03-14-2010, 11:14 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by SoulOfTheFlame

I don't want to include guys who are still prospects in this thread. The players you mentioned (with the exception of Pardy - who is barely an NHLer, having lost his job to Steve Staios) are not really worth anything until they actually make an impact at the NHL level. Erixon was a first rounder, you should be Drafting at least NHLers with your 1st round picks, so I don't think he counts as a steal. Negrin might one day, but he's still projecting to be a 3-6th Defenseman...

Yeah I agree, but at the very least they're progressing and making a decent impact at the level they're playing.

Pretty hard to analyze Flames' drafting without looking at these players though, as not enough time has passed to make a definitive determination on most players.

Pretty much though that 06 draft is starting to look pretty bad.

calculoso · 03-14-2010, 11:22 PM

Would you rather they scout the people drafted in the 5th round to make sure they don't get a bust or would you rather they scout the people in the 1st/2nd rounds to make those picks as productive as possible?

Easy answer IMO.

Wouldn't say that Button has been great.. but to criticize the late rounds is missing where the priority should be.

bubbsy · 03-14-2010, 11:24 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by calculoso

Would you rather they scout the people drafted in the 5th round to make sure they don't get a bust or would you rather they scout the people in the 1st/2nd rounds to make those picks as productive as possible?

Easy answer IMO.

Wouldn't say that Button has been great.. but to criticize the late rounds is missing where the priority should be.

this year, hopefully they are spot on with their 3-7th round picks, considering we don't have any picks earlier than that.

SoulOfTheFlame · 03-14-2010, 11:35 PM

Let's explore Calgary's late round steals vs. the rest of the NW to start. I'm not going to include any picks made in the 1st or 2nd round:

Edmonton

1. Mike Comrie (91st Overall)

Nothing else worth mentioning since 1999 really... They're on par with us in terms of poor late-round performance. Hey - they suck too!

Colorado
1. 240th Jeff Finger (very serviceable for this late a pick)
2. Radim Vrbata (212th - the guy's still a 20 goal scorer)
3. JM Liles (159th)
4. Marek Svatos (227th)
5. Brandon Yip (239th - might be a bit early to call a steal but a fine rookie season thus far)
6. David Jones (288th - see above)
7. TJ Galiardi (55th - see above)

Makes our drafting look downright embarrassing. Granted, one of the best in the league at finding talent

Vancouver
1. Kevin Bieksa (151st Overall)
2. Alex Edler (91st) - Great defenseman for that late a pick
3. Mason Raymond (51st - 20 goal scorer, fine pick).

Hate to say it, but slightly better results than Calgary

Minnesota
These guys don't have a single pick (3rd rounder or more) that I'd consider a steal. We're better than them (GO MOSSER!...)

In Summary
We're slightly below average when compared with our Divisional peers. Arguably as good as, or better than, Edmonton, definitely better than the Wild.

My point is, the Flames are trying to be a world class organization, and to do that you need world class scouts. Tod Button shows us nothing to indicate he is of that caliber.

TOfan · 03-14-2010, 11:35 PM

someone correct me if I'm wrong but Tod Button's 1st round draft history:

Erixon
Niemsz
Backlund
Irving
Pelech
CHucko
Phaneuf
Nystrom
Kobasew
Krahn

probably too early to tell for at least four of these guys (Erixon through Irving) but I would be pleasently surprised if we got 3 NHLer's out of those four.

Gotta start to wonder about Pelech. If he can't make the jump next year, will he ever be able to do it?

Chucko might be able to fill Nystroms shoes if he bolts at the end of the year, but seems as though Chucko is a bubble NHLer at best.

Phaneuf.....

Nystrom will probably top out as a 10 goal 20 point fourth liner. in other words very replaceable.

Kobasew probably topped out as a 20 goal guy with the Flames. which would be good if he could bring something more than that, but he didn't/couldn't.

Krahn is a little unfair to call a bust, we won't know how good he could've been. injuries derailed his career.

SoulOfTheFlame · 03-14-2010, 11:37 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by calculoso

Would you rather they scout the people drafted in the 5th round to make sure they don't get a bust or would you rather they scout the people in the 1st/2nd rounds to make those picks as productive as possible?

Easy answer IMO.

Except that they haven't been... right?

Dion is the only star pick made in the first round since the Tod button regime began. Is this really acceptable?