PA abortionist, and barbarian, may face death penalty.

[pylon]

I don't care what side of the debate you are on, if true, this is horrific, and the guy deserves everything he gets. And hopefully they snip him to pieces, and suck him down an industrial sewer-vac truck, because thats where s#*t belongs.

http://www.calgaryherald.com/news/Pr...860/story.html

Gosnell, who ran his own abortion clinic, Women's Medical Society, in Philadelphia, is charged with first-degree murder in the deaths of seven infants born alive and viable but allegedly killed by him.

more here, but very difficult to read, and very sad (spoiler added for graphic nature):

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/41154527...me_and_courts/

Spoiler!

In a typical late-term abortion, the fetus is dismembered in the uterus and then removed in pieces. That is more common than the procedure opponents call "partial-birth abortion," in which the fetus is only partially extracted before being destroyed. Prosecutors said Gosnell instead delivered many of the babies alive.

He "induced labor, forced the live birth of viable babies in the sixth, seventh, eighth month of pregnancy and then killed those babies by cutting into the back of the neck with scissors and severing their spinal cord," District Attorney Seth Williams said.

Gosnell referred to the practice as "snipping," prosecutors said.

Prosecutors estimated Gosnell ended hundreds of pregnancies by cutting the spinal cords, but they said couldn't prosecute more cases because he destroyed files.

"These killings became so routine that no one could put an exact number on them," the grand jury report said. "They were considered 'standard procedure.'"

Our lawmakers have determined that women have the right to choose, we have to accept that, but in a case where an aborted fetus, comes out alive, and has a viable shot at life, do these women and these doctors still have the right to terminate that life? If the belief of pro lifers is, life does not exist inside the womb, and junior beats the odds, and makes it out in one piece, then what? What is the pro choice stance on this situation?

I have a friend that was born 3 months early and made it to a happy healthy adulthood, how, can anyone for the life of them, think a 6 or 7 month late term fetus, is not a living being? What is the pro choice stance on late term abortions? Very curious.

[Gozer]

I don't see a huge difference between snipping the spinal cord and leaving the baby alone until it stops crying (which is common in partial-birth abortions from what I understand).

I find an alarming number of people don't wish to address these issues when the morality of abortion is debated.

[CaptainCrunch]

The guys a monster to me, these babies were actually born, they were human beings, this guy is a serial killer, but if convicted his death will be easier then the babies.

[Jake]

I'm pro-choice, and I think this is horrific. I do not support the death penalty, but I think he deserves life in prison.

[flylock shox]

I would challenge anyone to view footage of a late-stage abortion and argue that it's anything other than unnatural and horrific. The sheer physiological response to something like that is stronger than any rationale one could put forward to justify it.

[pylon]

For the record, I am neither pro-life or pro-choice. I just found this highly shocking that things like this take place. My atheist views tell me once the fetus develops brain activity of any kind, as simple as that may be, it is a living being. I believe that is at about the 6th week. Up to that point, I do not think you are killing a being. After that point, I personally believe you are. That's just the way I feel.

However, I read this again, and I this is how I have come to understand this. This guy was taking a shortcut. Instead of killing the fetus out of site, in the womb, he was just streamlining the process, and getting it out of the womb first, a perfectly viable living being, and killing it on the table? Correct me if I am wrong here.

So I guess the justification of the pro choicers would be, as long as is it killed in the womb, it is ok? If so I found that highly disturbing, and a very convenient rearrangement of facts to justify this practice.

[Thor]

I'm pro choice and I think this is awesome.

[JohnnyB]

*waits for all hell to break loose*

[HeartsOfFire]

Originally Posted by pylon

So I guess the justification of the pro choicers would be, as long as is it killed in the womb, it is ok? If so I found that highly disturbing, and a very convenient rearrangement of facts to justify this practice.

That's where I personally draw the line, yes.

[Starfishy]

I thought there was a law about no abortions after a certain point (1st trimester, 2nd trimester)?

[BigBrodieFan]

In Kansas, Doctor George Tiller performed thousands upon thousands of partial birth abortions. He was murdered by a pro-choice zealot. Everyone was outraged, including President Obama. This wasn't the first time he'd had an attempt on his life.

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2009/0..._n_209504.html


This man was committed (or obsessed) with performing partial birth abortions. If you have a chance to look at what he did and the procedures he used, it definitely will make you sick.

I am pro-choice, but I think that partial birth abortion should be illegal in all states. There has never, ever been any case (that I know of) that proves that a partial birth abortion saved the life of a mother.

[Itse]

I'm no expert on US law, but pretty typical western practice is (very roughly) 1st trimester is more or less mothers choice, 2nd trimester abortions are available in special cases, 3rd trimester they are babies and you try to keep them alive.

[oilyfan]

Originally Posted by pylon

For the record, I am neither pro-life or pro-choice. I just found this highly shocking that things like this take place. My atheist views tell me once the fetus develops brain activity of any kind, as simple as that may be, it is a living being. I believe that is at about the 6th week. Up to that point, I do not think you are killing a being. After that point, I personally believe you are. That's just the way I feel.

However, I read this again, and I this is how I have come to understand this. This guy was taking a shortcut. Instead of killing the fetus out of site, in the womb, he was just streamlining the process, and getting it out of the womb first, a perfectly viable living being, and killing it on the table? Correct me if I am wrong here.

So I guess the justification of the pro choicers would be, as long as is it killed in the womb, it is ok? If so I found that highly disturbing, and a very convenient rearrangement of facts to justify this practice.

I am pro choice but I do not support 3rd trimester abortions, I thought they were illegal. If they are not then they should be, we need to do this because these are always the cases that pro-lifers bring up when arguing their point.

[Gozer]

Originally Posted by oilyfan

....these are always the cases that pro-lifers bring up when arguing their point.

And that's what really matters.

[NuclearFart]

There are places in the US where you can legally get a 3rd trimester abortion, though it certainly depends on the situation.

The media is skewing the reader here by their generous use of the word "viable". Yes preterm babies can be viable, but extreme preterm babies require a huge amount of medical intervention, and their prognosis remains abysmal. And should they survive the initial hump, consider their longterm outcomes. Does giving birth to Terri Schiavo ver. 2.0 count as viable? In other words, if this doctor didn't pop their heads off, would it have been better to let them slowly perish under the burden of undeveloped organs?

Perhaps an argument can be made against the doctor for inducing early delivery, but a determined mother could certainly have done it herself via a quick google search. At least here it was performed in a controlled medical environment, however this particular doc doesnt sound like he was the best at that either.

[FiftyBelow]

Absolutely tragic. The sadder thing is that there are likely more of those types of clinics that have not been found.

I myself am pro-life in which I define life as beginning at conception and I just don't feel that people have the right to terminate the growth of a new baby once it has already begun. If you're going to have sex you have to be prepared with the potential consequences that result from such acts. Contraceptive failure is not an excuse for an abortion... even these products do not guarantee 100% birth control and people should be aware in the first place. However, I also believe that women should be able to appeal for an abortion if they meet certain conditions (experienced rape, life-threatening etc).


In my opinion the previous section of the Criminal Code which restricted abortion procedures had it right. If I remember correctly (been a while since I've studied it) the section restricted abortions but women could apply to a council of doctors to get an exemption. The code was overturned by the SC not because they agreed that a woman's right to have an abortion existed but because of procedural reasons in which women did not have fair and equal access to the councils.

Had they amended the application procedures, I think we would have a sufficient system for handling abortion.

[Itse]

Third trimester preterm is quite often not an extreme case. My own daughter was born a little over two months preterm, weighing about 1,5 kg and while she needed some special care in the beginning (mostly because she couldn't eat on her own), she's been basicly a model of health (for four years now) except for slight asthma, which she would propably have anyway (due to genetical reasons).

I also have a very good friend who's daughter was born weighing under 1kg, and who is fine now (age six). She spent her first months in the hospital and they did at least one somewhat extreme operation, but you wouldn't know it anymore, except she's notably small. (Then again her mother is also quite small.)

In adults I know at least half a dozen people who were born notably preterm, and I would never have guessed had the topic not come up.

Of course, Finland does have one of the best records in healthcare for preterm babies.

[Ducay]

I considered myself pro-choice.....but dear god, I had no idea such late term abortions occurred; that is just horrific. Consider my day epically crushed.

I'd say 1st trimester only....if that, should be allowed.

[LGA]

I'm a pro-choicer, but I think that choice has to be done wisely. First trimester should be when you decide whether or not you want to keep the baby, I can see there are special cases in the second trimester that, due to developmental complications could be a viable reason for abortion. However, unless something goes tragically wrong in the fetuses development up to that stage, there should be very, very few legitimate reasons for aborting the child. That's like taking procrastination to a whole new gory level, and completely irresponsible.

[LGA]

Originally Posted by Itse

Third trimester preterm is quite often not an extreme case. My own daughter was born a little over two months preterm, weighing about 1,5 kg and while she needed some special care in the beginning (mostly because she couldn't eat on her own), she's been basicly a model of health (for four years now) except for slight asthma, which she would propably have anyway (due to genetical reasons).

I also have a very good friend who's daughter was born weighing under 1kg, and who is fine now (age six). She spent her first months in the hospital and they did at least one somewhat extreme operation, but you wouldn't know it anymore, except she's notably small. (Then again her mother is also quite small.)

In adults I know at least half a dozen people who were born notably preterm, and I would never have guessed had the topic not come up.

Of course, Finland does have one of the best records in healthcare for preterm babies.

Definitely agree with this, my sister was born three months premature and she's 21 and healthy now.