Tournament of Losers

[hurtin_albertan]

Not sure if this is being discussed elsewhere (Drive for 30th, Flames Draft Discussion, etc) but I heard Walker and Francis talk about it this morning and thought it was a great idea and wanted to gauge people's opinions here.

Basically the idea is to eliminate intentional losing by introducing a so called "tournament of losers" or "consolation playoffs", whereby teams start accumulating draft lottery points based on the number of points they get in games after their mathematical elimination from post-season contention. As a result teams would be rewarded for winning or at least trying to be competitive, rather than the opposite effect that today's draft order determination has where teams are rewarded for losing.

Personally I think it's an excellent idea, and would put some extra meaning into games down the stretch that otherwise really don't matter. Myself, I can't cheer for losing, and I become pretty disinterested in Flames games after they've been ruled out of the dance. If they entered a "tournament" where the number of points they amassed meant something again I would likely be more inclined to stay engaged.

Discuss, CP.

[lazypucker]

How about take it one step further and set up a losers playoff, have some mini series (best of 3, mini league, whatever) and the winner gets the 1st overall pick?

[Psytic]

Or the 29th and 30th place teams get relegated to the AHL. This would cause more competition because even the Oilers would try to avoid that type of shaming.

[Lego Man]

Then how do the teams who get really bad eventually get better?

If there was relegation then there would be no need for a draft, right?

[Muffins]

Originally Posted by hurtin_albertan

Basically the idea is to eliminate intentional losing by introducing a so called "tournament of losers" or "consolation playoffs", whereby teams start accumulating draft lottery points based on the number of points they get in games after their mathematical elimination from post-season contention. As a result teams would be rewarded for winning or at least trying to be competitive, rather than the opposite effect that today's draft order determination has where teams are rewarded for losing.

Discuss, CP.

So what about the teams that get eliminated at the last game? Zero points for them? All that would do is punish teams who were competing for a playoff spot at the end.

[Oling_Roachinen]

The problem is still really terrible teams will lose. Parity helps, but even getting eliminated earlier might not be enough so you get away from the actual reason of the draft order in the first place.

And more importantly, with the 4 division system next year there's simply going to be some divisions that are tighter than the others. A team might not mathematically be eliminated the same time their counterparts are despite not being any better, especially when there's some division with 8 and some with 7 teams.

[smalltownref]

Personally, while I would love to find a way to remove tanking from the game itself to get a higher draft pick, I don't think we simply can. Here's the problem... everyone wants league parity. And in order to do that, the worse teams need the higher draft picks in order to improve. What you are suggesting here is that for those teams eliminated from the playoffs, you get draft pick points by winning games later on and accumulating draft pick points. That is essentially removing the idea of league parity and it's rewarding the stronger non-playoff teams and it's hurting the weaker non-playoff teams. While it would be excellent for the Flames for example this year, who aren't near as bad as say the Panthers are, it would be detrimental to the Panthers... a team who couldn't win a game even if their lives depended on it.

It sucks that there is tanking in the league, but if the league wants to continue on having 'parity', we can't engage into something new that might allow stronger teams to be picking ahead of weaker teams in the draft (assuming compete level is the same).

[calgaryrocks]

Originally Posted by Muffins

So what about the teams that get eliminated at the last game? Zero points for them? All that would do is punish teams who were competing for a playoff spot at the end.

it doesn't really punish them as they would be in the same spot they are in currently (like the Flames last year...thier draft position would have actually improved!) its more to discourage the fall for hall type things

[Canada 02]

I'd like something like this

the last 20 games of the season goes toward earning your draft position. The non-playoff team with the greatest difference in winning percentage for those 20 games compared to their overall winning percentage gets the top pick

by factoring in the season winning percentage, it gives consideration to the really bad teams; comparing that to their 20 game winning percentage gives the team motivation to win at the end rather than tank

[Oling_Roachinen]

Originally Posted by Canada 02

I'd like something like this

the last 20 games of the season goes toward earning your draft position. The non-playoff team with the greatest difference in winning percentage for those 20 games compared to their overall winning percentage gets the top pick

by factoring in the season winning percentage, it gives consideration to the really bad teams; comparing that to their 20 game winning percentage gives the team motivation to win at the end rather than tank

It's not a terrible idea, far from it. But there's still going to be discrepancies, maybe not huge, but a couple teams will play maybe 13 road games stuff like that. And even if you're a terrible team and want to win, you still wont. So a team that really does need the first overall will stay around the exact same percentage they have all year and pick in the middle say 7th overall. In the end, it discourages tanking but doesn't help bad teams - the real reason for the draft order.

[puckedoff]

I like it a lot. The 'tanking' philosophy is awful, and although players don't likely actively try to lose at least this would give them incentive to try to win and stop fans from making 'fail for nail' signs and that other crap.

[J epworth]

Originally Posted by smalltownref

Personally, while I would love to find a way to remove tanking from the game itself to get a higher draft pick, I don't think we simply can. Here's the problem... everyone wants league parity. And in order to do that, the worse teams need the higher draft picks in order to improve. What you are suggesting here is that for those teams eliminated from the playoffs, you get draft pick points by winning games later on and accumulating draft pick points. That is essentially removing the idea of league parity and it's rewarding the stronger non-playoff teams and it's hurting the weaker non-playoff teams. While it would be excellent for the Flames for example this year, who aren't near as bad as say the Panthers are, it would be detrimental to the Panthers... a team who couldn't win a game even if their lives depended on it.

It sucks that there is tanking in the league, but if the league wants to continue on having 'parity', we can't engage into something new that might allow stronger teams to be picking ahead of weaker teams in the draft (assuming compete level is the same).

It wouldn't really reward the stronger non-playoff teams though. Say the Blue Jackets lose tonight and get eliminated from the playoffs. They have no games remaining and will have accumulated 0 draft pick points, which would end up giving them the 14th pick.

The Flames on the other hand got eliminated on the 17th after the Detroit win. We've won 2 games since then, giving us 4 draft pick points.

Colorado got eliminated on the 14th. Since then they've accumulated 3 draft pick points. So with this system both the Flames and the Avs would actually have a meaningful last game of the season, since they are only 1 point apart with a game to go.

Florida, currently 30th in the league, was eliminated on the 16th. They've currently only gotten 2 draft pick points since then. Here's where playing better after being eliminated for those bottom feeding teams is advantageous, because with this new system Florida wouldn't be in the position of 1st overall right now.

[Wolven]

This was discussed on the FAN a few days ago, so of course Francis is bringing it up again as a new idea.

Originally Posted by FakenHaken

I liked the Fan 960 idea this morning to be honest.

The idea I think is this once a team is mathematically elimanted from the playoffs. Then the team with the most points accumulated between then and the end of the season gets the first pick and so on down the line.

For Example:

If Columbus were eliminated from the playoffs on game 60 then they would have game 61 - 82 to try and accumulate the most amount of points possible. Let's say that is 10 points.

If Edmonton were eliminated from the playoffs on game 72. Then they would have game 73 - 82 to try and accumulate the most amount of points possible. Let's say 5 points and came in 4th.

In this example Columbus picks first and then Team 2, Team 3, and then Edmonth 4th.

This would prevent the tanking theory, but it would still bring fans to the rink trying to cheer their team onto victory.

Also, I'd stop being a fan of the Edmonton Oilers, Carolina Hurricanes, Tampa Bay Lightning, Florida Panthers, Colorado Avalanche, Nashville Predators. It's too hard cheering for all these teams to win.

Thing is, I think this would just cause a different type of tanking earlier in the season to get mathmatically eliminated as soon as possible and then start winning again. Also, this would potentially reward the "best of the worst" to tank and then start winning games in order to win the draft.

I think the idea has potential for providing more entertainment but I do not think it answers the fundamental problem of allowing the worst teams to draft good players in order to become competitive again without rewarding the same teams for tanking over and over again to acquire star talent.

[Puppet Guy]

I like the idea of a single-game elimination tournament for top spot, or a two-game total points playoff (this'd guarantee owners at least one game and therefore some revenue). Gotta wonder though, if a team misses the playoffs and have traded away their top pick, what would their incentive be?

[smalltownref]

Originally Posted by J epworth kendal

It wouldn't really reward the stronger non-playoff teams though. Say the Blue Jackets lose tonight and get eliminated from the playoffs. They have no games remaining and will have accumulated 0 draft pick points, which would end up giving them the 14th pick.

The Flames on the other hand got eliminated on the 17th after the Detroit win. We've won 2 games since then, giving us 4 draft pick points.

Colorado got eliminated on the 14th. Since then they've accumulated 3 draft pick points. So with this system both the Flames and the Avs would actually have a meaningful last game of the season, since they are only 1 point apart with a game to go.

Florida, currently 30th in the league, was eliminated on the 16th. They've currently only gotten 2 draft pick points since then. Here's where playing better after being eliminated for those bottom feeding teams is advantageous, because with this new system Florida wouldn't be in the position of 1st overall right now.

I see what you are saying here, but it still takes away from league parity though in the long run. Based on what you are saying here is that due to the wins that the Flames have had, we would be picking higher than Florida and Colorado right now if this was the system. IMO, this is the complete opposite of what needs to happen to maintain league parity. If the Panthers are as bad as what they are, and they are in fact not tanking but just suck that bad, they need the most help to be competitive, and as a result they need that first overall pick. Calgary is a 'stronger non-playoff' team as compared to Florida, and the system you are talking about here would reward Calgary for doing well after being eliminated from the playoffs, but would hurt the teams that really need the help (i.e. Florida).

Everyone talks like they want meaningful hockey games at the end, and I just assume that there will be meaningful hockey because guys are out there playing for contracts or contract extensions. Players have their own initiatives to do well, and at the end of the year under the current format, unfortunately those desires do not typically resemble those of fans or management.

[Locke]

Originally Posted by Psytic

Or the 29th and 30th place teams get relegated to the AHL. This would cause more competition because even the Oilers would try to avoid that type of shaming.

I like it. And then the 28th place team gets the 1st overall pick. Make gambling on the standing really, really fun!

Get it just right and you get the pick, get it wrong and you're riding the bus!

[J epworth]

Here's what the draft standings would be with this proposed system (If teams tied in points, I went with their current standings, with lower teams getting the better draft pick)


14th: Columbus - 0pts
13th: Winnipeg - 0pts
12th: Dallas - 0pts
11th: Edmonton - 0pts
10th: Phoenix 2pts
9th: Buffalo 2pts
8th: TB - 2pts
7th: Florida - 2pts
6th: Nashville - 3pts
5th: Colorado - 3pts
4th: New Jersey - 4 pts
3rd: Calgary - 4 pts
2nd: Carolina - 5 pts
1st: Philadelphia - 6 pts

[trumpethead]

Originally Posted by Wolven

Thing is, I think this would just cause a different type of tanking earlier in the season to get mathmatically eliminated as soon as possible and then start winning again. Also, this would potentially reward the "best of the worst" to tank and then start winning games in order to win the draft.

I think the idea has potential for providing more entertainment but I do not think it answers the fundamental problem of allowing the worst teams to draft good players in order to become competitive again without rewarding the same teams for tanking over and over again to acquire star talent.

But if you were the "best of the worst" why would you tank as soon as possible? You would be gunning for the last playoff spot no??

[Sgrath]

This is my coupe of crazy ideas - a lot of holes in them I'm sure but here goes nothing

1)
Each conference holds a play off brackeet of sorts
1st round: Conference champs get a bye - other 14 teams drawn at random and play home & home games. Winner advances
2nd round - all 8 remaining teams drawn at random same home & home
keep going till there is a winner
Ranking defines draft order - lose in 1st round gives better draft pick. The kicker here is that the winner of the playoff gets the last Stanley Cup playoff spot if they don't finish in top 8.

Truly bad teams won't make it but the incentive for a sure fire playoff spot will ensure good competion.

2)
Teams that do not make the playoffs have there draft rankings calculated by a statistically valid sampling of the seir seasons results - say 20% of games at random. This way the truly bad teams will be more likely to get the better picks and tanking after missing playoffs will not guarantee a good pick.

[GGG]

How about a tournament of losers for the 8th playoff spot that also decides draft position. so on each side you would have 8 play 16 7 play 15 etc. The losers of those games would get the top 8 draft picks by equal weighted lottery. Then you continue the playdown until you have 1 team in each conference and they get the eigth seed in the playoffs. Just single elimination with home games for the better team.

There is incentive for ownership to not finish in the bottom 4 because you get 1 home playoff game. And fans are interested because all you need is to win 3 games and you make the playoffs.